Intersex clean sweep in the 800!

exthrower wrote:

Not XY wrote:

You are aware that there are other areas of discrimination which raise exactly the same issues.

There are able-bodied people who identify as disabled.

There are people of one race who genuinely identify as people of another race.

So on the same thinking, we can look forward to non-disabled athletes succeeding in the Paralympics, because they are identify as disabled, and paralympians unable to compete against non-disabled people being called disgusting names for not being "fluid enough" in their approach to the disability spectrum.

Strange how when its women, all sorts of abuse is considered acceptable though.

Abuse? Are you nuts?

Haven't you seen some of the racist and sexual abuse on the internet regarding the women in the 800m. Mainly Lynsey Sharp for daring to be "slow" (despite being one of the fastest her successful athletics nation has produced), female, white, blonde, etc.?

Seriously?

My mother told me she would have loved to do competitive sport, but it was discouraged because she was female. She told me how if she even went out cycling, she would be followed, she was told by her parents, her friends and the coaches at her local track that athletics was no place for a woman. That was 30 years ago. Since then, women have made massive strides and participation has increased hugely, yet it seems its only been a brief respite. From now on, womens sport will be dominated by those born with birth defects which allow them to compete as women in a politically correct world, and women without birth defects who have the ability to reproduce will be mocked and denigrated for having the temerity not to be born men (or nearer to being men). Young women will be deterred from taking up athletics because without doping on testosterone, there is no level playing field.

And you don't think any of that is abusive?

asjdf wrote:

9 pages on this thread, but nobody answered one question: If Caster is intersexed, why choose to run with women instead of men?

Because it goès by what the athletes believe their gender is and not by how much testosterone they have.. i believe it should be the opposite.

I am happy for them but I feel for the other women and for the up and coming mid distance female athletes like my daughter. It looks like these "hyperandrogenous" women will be dominating their sport in the future.

Very simple solution,bring there testosterone level to the other women and let them compete.

PR specialist, it's funny how some people latch onto a particular phrase and invest it with a epic significance grasped by no one but themselves. Why am I a "middle schooler" for saying Melissa Bishop is an attractive female athlete? To me, it's a great thing that a woman as lovely as Bishop can run a PR and set a national record after 3 rounds of world class competition. I don't mean to suggest looks typically imply a weakness, so why is it sexist to admire beauty and strength in a particular female?

It's true that Semenya was plucked from rural poverty in the northern Limpopo ("nowhere") province of South Africa. Her intersex condition may have been caused by environmental contaminants (such as the spraying of DDT to alleviate mosquitoes & malaria. It may have been caused by an autosomal recessive disorder which arose due to the practice of intermarriage between blood relations (consanguinity.) Whatever the cause, Semenya was born with no primary female reproductive organs. "She" is a she euphemistically, not biologically. Her primary reproductive organs are MALE...she possesses an EXTRA BODY PART that her genuinely female rivals do not. That body part (TESTICLES) gives Semenya a male testosterone range and makes her freakishly powerful and fast in a way that real females aren't. We've seen it play out this year, after the CAS ruling, which freed Semenya from her testosterone-reducing treatments. At the DL meet in Rome, Semenya ran mostly wide in the 2nd lane, before crushing a final 100 meters in almost 13 seconds to run a 1:56.6. The 2015 world champion, Marina Arzamasova, was left 3+ seconds adrift. Another world champion, Eunice Sum (also gorgeous), was nearly 6 seconds back. You have to wonder about the psychological impact that Semenya's insane improvement had on champions like Sum and on great prospects like Ajee Wilson. One season they're medal favorites, and then suddenly the Earth shifts as a trio of lawyers in a castle somewhere issue a ruling, and suddenly Wilson and Sum are non-contenders. Looking at photos and video of the race, Semenya's face conveys no difficulty, absolutely zero stress. Just a steady gaze as she jogs all the way to the bank. She could obviously take down Jarmila Kratochvilova's 34-year old WR at any time, but doing so would only highlight her hyperandrogenic power.

It's also true that back in 2009, Semenya was misused by South African officials. Certain coaches recognized that an 18-year old Semenya would destroy the competition and create controversy and were hesitant to send her to the World Championships. But other South African officials saw Semenya as a propaganda tool, a way of showing the world South Africa's "greatness." Needless to say, they weren't thinking about fair sport for female middle distance runners. So they sent a rural intersex youth from "nowhere" to Berlin and rest is history: the gender verification testing, the leaked results, Semenya's victory, the harsh spotlight. All of that is true, but the poor treatment Semenya received does not exonerate her from a responsibility to behave ethically towards her fellow competitors. We've all seen Semenya's freakish post-medicated improvement. We've seen it with our eyes, but she's felt it in her bones, in her stride, in her breathing, in her ease at race pace. She turns around at the end of a race to shake hands as her bent over rivals gasp like fish. She pretends it's just good hard training. She is snickering into her armpit at the ideology & stupidity of Richard McClaren and the Court of Arbitration in Sport, who gave her approval to take profit, medals, acclaim and status, all from legitimate biological females who have busted their ass for years to reach the top of their sport. She has no qualms about it. In some respects, it's like watching a bully taking lunch money from weaker classmates on a playground at recess, as teachers standby and applaud.

Semenya's agenda is profit, but there are others who don't care about Track & Field, who are using Semenya to advance a political agenda. These are the trans-rainbow activists in the media (Ruth Padawer, Jere Longman and the editorial board at the NY Times) in academia (Sari van Anders at Michigan and Katrina Karkazis at Stanford.) These are the people who only talk about Caster's story, her hardship, while ignoring the current unjust quandary of female middle-distance runners. They use terms like "intersex female" a schizoid oxymoron, for sure. It suites their career path to push for rainbow/transgender rights, to affect societal change, and they've decided the best way to do that is by altering Sport as a means pervasive societal persuasion. If they can permanently alter T&F to accommodate hyperandrogenic athletes--even if it means oppressing a vast majority of females in the process, they will. There's a very strong whiff of arrogance, contempt, and control in their non-sensical arguments (eg: "testosterone does not impart a performance advantage.") They will never admit that the only reason Dutee Chand ran in the Olympics at Rio (and was destroyed in the Prelims) was because she was allowed to stop her hormone-suppressing treatment, and her T-levels rose and her fitness improved to the point that she finally ran a qualifying time, after years of trying and failing.

With little personal connection to difficulties and rewards of sport, these people view our concern for a level playing field as quaint or immature. I'm not gonna call them SJW's, because I also believe in justice for everyone. The insidious thing is that they don't. They want us to re-educate ourselves to their greater "wisdom" and gut the fairness & essence of sport, and athletes like Melissa, Ajee, and Eunice should just agree to sacrifice their strength, intensity and youth by hopelessly competing against stacked competition, for peanuts. At this point, Bolshevism and hyperandrogenism are starting to look pretty similar.

Nodge wrote:

Very simple solution,bring there testosterone level to the other women and let them compete.

This was done until a court overturned it. Semenya ran just under 2:05 and was not a factor when on an even playing field.

Very thoughtful and measured post chilhowee.

Great post. End of thread. Thank you chilhowee.

mroberts156 wrote:

I am happy for them but I feel for the other women and for the up and coming mid distance female athletes like my daughter. It looks like these "hyperandrogenous" women will be dominating their sport in the future.

If your daughter is conventional XX, then it's over.

QFE

Justice4caster wrote:

He has every right to identify as a woman and run. CAS says so, and I'm sure they're more informed than anyone here.

First of all, CAS did not say that.

Dyck Pound wrote:

clearly Melissa Bishop is an XY also. Have yopu seen her picture. doesn't look like a woman at all!

http://www.girlswithmuscle.com/images/full/513155210.jpg

Transgender males must be the most vindictive and stupidest misogynists on the planet.

exthrower wrote:

Honestly...I don't believe you.....In 1985 coaches were not telling Women not to be athletes.....You are a obsessed with portraying Women as 'victims'.

I was surprised to see you standing up for women, but now things are back to normal for you.

Honestly...I don't believe you.....In 1985 coaches were not telling Women not to be athletes.....You are a obsessed with portraying Women as 'victims'.[/quote]

Its because women aren't victims that we are fighting this. Women's participation numbers have improved massively since 1985 and more so since 1975 and 1965. Women aren't prepared to be told they are "too slow" to do competitive sports any more, or "too fragile" or "not male enough". Aint gonna happen.

Semenya etc should be forced to resign their medals once this is sorted out or the first 3 women given medals.

This is what some of these female (probably non athletic) females don't understand. Us males are trying to protect female sports. Females have made great strides over the last 40 years, but if we allow intersex athletes or XXY athletes in the women's division; it will ruin it. Nobody is saying they can't compete, they just must compete in the other division with the people who have testosterone levels 20+.

Honestly...I don't believe you.....In 1985 coaches were not telling Women not to be athletes.....You are a obsessed with portraying Women as 'victims'.[/quote]