Does Caster Semenya have a Y chromosome or not?

Dr. R wrote:

Every human starts as female in utero.

So really, we are all still female? That's the most strained argument yet that I've seen for saying a person with male chromosomes, testes and male levels of testosterone is one helluva woman. You live in a very confused world, sir. Of course, we are only one chromosome different from chimpanzees, too, so I guess we should also be including them in the competition.

Semenya does get an advantage. wrote:

Dr. R wrote:

As I mentioned, there are cases of females with intersex traits that get no advantage from testosterone. Testosterone produces male sex characteristics and some XY individuals are completely insensitive to it. They are essentially female and there is no advantage to speak of.

Which doesn't include Semenya as there is an advantage gained when running certain events, only an idiot would say otherwise.

This in fact was proven when she went on medication to reduce T levels, went from ??? to ?.

Bit of both. wrote:

Dr. R wrote:

Not confused at all, but appreciate the comment.

People here are suggesting she race against men and not women. Whether they intended it or not that amounts to categorizing her as a certain gender.

No it doesn't, it amounts to you suggesting they are, two different things.

Also, identifying as a certain gender doesn't make you so.

There's confusion to which gender Semenya is, seems a bit of both.

She was born intersex. Genetically male, but female for reasons of appearance, upbringing, anatomy etc. She identifies as female; there's really no confusion here.

The question is should she be allowed to compete with females. Some might argue that we can disallow her from competing with females in a way that doesn't infringe on her right to be described as female. I'm not so sure, but I think you're right to question me on that. To me telling her she has to compete with men is tantamount to saying that society refuses to her accept her as woman. But I concede I might be reaching; after all it's sports and competition matters. But can this be legislated in a way that isn't degrading? I hope so.

Just imagine some teenage intersex girl being forced to run with boys, how humiliating and potentially confusing this must be to someone who's only known one way of living their entire lives.

Semenya does get an advantage. wrote:

Dr. R wrote:

As I mentioned, there are cases of females with intersex traits that get no advantage from testosterone. Testosterone produces male sex characteristics and some XY individuals are completely insensitive to it. They are essentially female and there is no advantage to speak of.

Which doesn't include Semenya as there is an advantage gained when running certain events, only an idiot would say otherwise.

I'm taking issue with Rojo's claim that the presence of XY is fundamental to determining advantage. It isn't in every case.

Dr. R wrote:

Just imagine some teenage intersex girl being forced to run with boys,

There's no forcing, it's just a fact of life that it's not for you, either with the males of females, just as pro basketball isn't for a 4ft nothing weakling, or the shot putt isn't for a scrawny distance runner, jockey isn't for a 10 stoner, etc, etc. Some things in life are just beyond us/not available to us/whatever, hard but true.

Armstronglivs wrote:

Dr. R wrote:

Every human starts as female in utero.

So really, we are all still female? That's the most strained argument yet that I've seen for saying a person with male chromosomes, testes and male levels of testosterone is one helluva woman. You live in a very confused world, sir. Of course, we are only one chromosome different from chimpanzees, too, so I guess we should also be including them in the competition.

I was responding to the poster that said that people with a Y chromosome aren't and have never been female. Technically incorrect. And it's important because I've been discussing the reasons that individuals can be born genetically male, but never develop masculine traits, and so appear and present as female.

No confusion here. Ask a doctor.

Dr. R wrote:

Semenya does get an advantage. wrote:

Which doesn't include Semenya as there is an advantage gained when running certain events, only an idiot would say otherwise.

I'm taking issue with Rojo's claim that the presence of XY is fundamental to determining advantage. It isn't in every case.

Yeah, we know that, but this thread is about Semenya and in Semenya's case it is, the threads not here for you to push your SJW agenda or show how clever you are. Semenya has a T advantage, get over it.

Maybe you're right! There's no way I was going to make it as a basketball player. Too short, too slow twitch, etc.

In the case of Semenya and intersex individuals, if some lines have to be drawn for the sake of competition and sport then so be it, but I do think it's important to proceed with tact, respect, and accuracy. We can't paint with broad brushes and I think that's what Rojo did.

Like I said before, if you think that I'm pushing some kind of agenda here, the same could be said about Rojo, given his sources and myopia regarding the complexity of the issue. And you might know, but others do not-- I'm responding to what I see as incorrect assertions based on the evidence out there. Also, as someone else stated, XY isn't 100% in cases like this there is the small possibility of CAH, and there could be other factors as well.

Often people want to get personal when they've exhausted their argument, and that's fine, I'm used to it. If there's something more substantive I'm all ears.

??? to ? wrote:

Semenya does get an advantage. wrote:

Which doesn't include Semenya as there is an advantage gained when running certain events, only an idiot would say otherwise.

This in fact was proven when she went on medication to reduce T levels, went from ??? to ?.

Same with Wambui

Dr. R wrote:

Like I said before, if you think that I'm pushing some kind of agenda here, the same could be said about Rojo, given his sources and myopia regarding the complexity of the issue. And you might know, but others do not-- I'm responding to what I see as incorrect assertions based on the evidence out there. Also, as someone else stated, XY isn't 100% in cases like this there is the small possibility of CAH, and there could be other factors as well.

Often people want to get personal when they've exhausted their argument, and that's fine, I'm used to it. If there's something more substantive I'm all ears.

It may be the case, as I think you are arguing, that in some instances the biology of sex or gender isn't as clear-cut as saying we simply live in a world where men are men and women are women. It may also be the case that there are social aspects to gender that are different from its biological aspects - as with transgender.

Sport is one such social expression of gender, when we have specific categories for male and female sports. But where sport runs up against current widening social interpretations of gender is that inclusivity, of intersex and transgender for example, can be very unfair to women without those traits. That is because sport is also a physical and not just social activity.

The fairness necessary to preserving women's sport means that those athletes who have advantages that only male genetics can give them are either ineligible or must bring those advantages back within female limits. The debate does not need to be about whether Semenya is truly female - the IAAF has accepted her identification with female - but whether advantages that can only come from her also having male genetics require her to reduce those advantages if she is still to compete as a woman. The most obvious manifestation of this is her male levels of testosterone. I think Rojo pointing out that she has a Y chromosome simply emphasises that she has elements of a male biology that XX females do not have, and this together with her having male reproductive organs explains her physical advantages that include her testosterone levels. These are advantages denied XX women - who are most women. Requiring her to reduce these appears to be the best compromise so far to allow people like her to compete in sport as females but not at the expense of her other female competitors who do not have male genetic advantage. This may seem unfair to her as an individual, to have to change what she was born with in order to compete, but in such instances the interests of the individual are clearly outweighed by the interests of the many.

Dr. R wrote:

Rojo, given his sources and myopia regarding the complexity of the issue.

He doesn't need to make it complex, so he didn't, he pointed out Semenya is XY with high T which gives an unfair advantage in women's races. There are other places to go to get in to the complexities which have no real relevance here or you could start a new thread about the complexities you keep on about.

Semenya has male secondary sexual characteristics in full so cannot be resistant to testosterone after development in the womb, unlike Dutee Chand.

The ruling wouldn’t apply to Semenya if his body didn’t use testosterone in a typically male pattern.

I’m not sure if Semenya even identifies as a woman for anything other than beating biologically female athletes in racing. Why does it have to be “confusing”? It could also be joyful to discover that you were brought up in the wrong gender at birth but then realised you were male after all. Yes, it might mean you have to race with other men if you want to keep doing your sport and are no longer at an elite level any more, but surely identifying as your correct gender would be more important to you than doing a sport?

Dr. R wrote:

She was born intersex. Genetically male, but female for reasons of appearance, upbringing, anatomy etc. She identifies as female; there's really no confusion here.

Right, there is no confusion. He's a male, and what he identifies as is not relevant.

/end of discussion

The thread is about the presence of Y. Rojo expressed outrage at the media failing to mention that, suggesting some kind of conspiracy. I'm responding in part to that.

My degree, title, and salary say otherwise. But ok, I'm not a doctor. Like I said, I don't think it helps to get personal.

I've explained why she is female, and why she should have every right to be described as such based not only on her biology but also on sociological factors. Calling her a him is not only disrespectful but also ignorant of the facts.

Whether or not androgen yields results and whether she should be allowed to compete is the debate. But the blanket statement that Y=male or that Y= unfair advantage is just factually incorrect.

not sure about the chromosome, but she does have a penis.

francine niyonsaba,and kabange mupopo have both admitted to having hyperandrogynism,but we dont know if they are biologically female,or male.same with semenya,although its assumed shes xy.they all may have intersex conditions,or they might be biological women,who have way more testosterone than is usual.i read somewhere that questions were raised about dorcas ajok,but her coach said shes a woman with extra testosterone. i remember santhi soundarajan from india,who seriously looks like a man,even more than semenya.she has androgen insensitivity syndrome.

jeff tallon wrote:

francine niyonsaba,and kabange mupopo have both admitted to having hyperandrogynism,but we dont know if they are biologically female,or male.same with semenya,although its assumed shes xy.they all may have intersex conditions,or they might be biological women,who have way more testosterone than is usual.i read somewhere that questions were raised about dorcas ajok,but her coach said shes a woman with extra testosterone. i remember santhi soundarajan from india,who seriously looks like a man,even more than semenya.she has androgen insensitivity syndrome.

Do you have links to those "admissions"?