LRC Exclusive: The latest on USADA's investigation into Alberto Salazar's Nike Oregon Project

rekrunner wrote:

I already guessed why you wrote USA(DA) -- because you would be unable to rationally link USADA (what this thread is about) to anything without broadening your umbrella of dependencies to other organizations that begin with US, like USATF and USOC, and putting them in the same boat.

Can you describe USADA's conflicted interests with Alberto and the NOP?

Oh please. Your trolling gets worse and worse. I put USADA + USOC + USATF together in one boat because that's where they belong. Obviously. For example, USADA's current Chair of the Board of Directors is Edwin Moses, who served on USOC before, and was a hero of USATF before that. Fact, fact, and fact. From USATF:

No dependencies, seriously? Of course Moses wants USATF to be successful, and Salazar unharmed, just like Coe rushed to Radcliffe's defense as IAAF President instead of waiting for IAAF's investigation into itself to unfold. Or when UKAD let Farah get away with the doorbell excuse, instead of banning him for evading a test. Also again see Baumann/Block/Gay/Mitchell etc. etc.

As for USOC, again:

"Newly disclosed documents prove long-held suspicions that the United States Olympic Committee covered up drug use by athletes"

Hmmm, why did they cover up that drug use? Conflict of interest or coincidence? Where was Moses at the time? Nothing to see here?

Unfortunately people get away with the most blatant dependencies here (see e.g. Coe as Nike employee lobbying his spiritual leader and president for Eugene), that would simply be ridiculed or forbidden elsewhere. Look for example at Niersbach's ban in today's news: there Eckert was replaced with Sullivan as chair because of a conflict of interest assumption just because he's German like Niersbach. That's a much less direct connection than the ones between USADA and USATF, or Coe and Nike, yet even FIFA's Ethics committee acted on it.

Your interval training comparison is absurd. Altitude training is an artificially created performance enhancer and its just a fact that a lot of people have a problem with it. Its not pure. Note that the last time WADA or USADA made a ruling on this issue they only said that at this time they will continue to keep them legal. They are not exactly endorsing that they should be legal. Personally I don't care. I'm just making the point that plenty of people on this board have a problem with NOP's use of prescription drugs, even though that is legal. But on the issue of altitude tents they are silent. I think the reason is obvious. Other Non - NOP athletes who they like use altitude tents, so that is ok. It betrays that this is all about personal hate for Salazar.

Track Name wrote:

Salazar pushes the envelop in everything he does. This is no exception. He wouldn't intentionally dope his athletes. He's not that stupid. However, he went after legal means of performance enhancing. Ethically he may be in the wrong, but when it comes out in the wash, he didn't break doping laws. The best thing to do is ban the hormone therapy.

Well, this is pretty much how I wold have summed it up too. How could anyone think NOP would be stupid enough to flagrantly dope and hope they don't get tested?

They use every legal mechanism to help their recovery.

Karma Police wrote:

How could anyone think NOP would be stupid enough to flagrantly dope and hope they don't get tested?

NOP gets away with their flagrant doping by doing experiments on children to test the threshold of testing positive. They don't answer the doorbell when the testers come over. They transport their PEDs in hollowed-out books. They use microdosing. They get doctors to prescribe phony TUEs. They send samples to the Mayo Clinic to make sure they aren't overly hot. They bribe the testers.

Can you just once bring something to a conversation besides your normal bullshit?

His son was not a child. He told USATF about his worries before he did it. Why would he warn them???

Mo wasn't part of the OP when that happened.

Transport Peds? It's been confirmed that it was antibiotics he sent in the hollowed out book. Even Steve knew this.

You realize USATF has to approve TUEs right? Are you saying they are involved too? Not to mention they showed they have had 5 TUEs total in the last 5 years. Is that abuse? I really don't know what's normal.

They bribe the testers? Where is this coming from? Can you post a link?

Doping NOPers wrote:

Karma Police wrote:

How could anyone think NOP would be stupid enough to flagrantly dope and hope they don't get tested?

NOP gets away with their flagrant doping by doing experiments on children to test the threshold of testing positive. They don't answer the doorbell when the testers come over. They transport their PEDs in hollowed-out books. They use microdosing. They get doctors to prescribe phony TUEs. They send samples to the Mayo Clinic to make sure they aren't overly hot. They bribe the testers.

Bribery, huh? Pretty strong allegations.

Evidence?

You're still clutching at straws.

The doorbell one is exactly what I said. You think Farah was cycling on PEDs, and tried to avoid everyone? That was the tactic? He goes out for a run or a training session that afternoon, and could be tested there. The PEDs are still in his system.

I don't see that as much against him. A lot of people have missed one test. Farah is the only one who cops it for it though.

Doping NOPers wrote:

Karma Police wrote:

How could anyone think NOP would be stupid enough to flagrantly dope and hope they don't get tested?

NOP gets away with their flagrant doping by doing experiments on children to test the threshold of testing positive. They don't answer the doorbell when the testers come over. They transport their PEDs in hollowed-out books. They use microdosing. They get doctors to prescribe phony TUEs. They send samples to the Mayo Clinic to make sure they aren't overly hot. They bribe the testers.

^^^^ All This !!!

The little NOP fanboyz can get all butthurt and rationalize the cheating to no end, but the truth is the truth. The truth is that NOP is a filthy program and Sleazy Sal will use each and every banned drug and new drug with impunity because Lord Coe and the USTAF have been paid off.

Any way you parse it, Salazar is running a high-level doping program. He got popped before with Decker, and hopefully gets popped again sooner rather than later. The evidence is overwhelming and any rational and truthful person knows that Salazar and NOP are guilty.

Doping NOPers wrote:

Karma Police wrote:

How could anyone think NOP would be stupid enough to flagrantly dope and hope they don't get tested?

NOP gets away with their flagrant doping by doing experiments on children to test the threshold of testing positive. They don't answer the doorbell when the testers come over. They transport their PEDs in hollowed-out books. They use microdosing. They get doctors to prescribe phony TUEs. They send samples to the Mayo Clinic to make sure they aren't overly hot. They bribe the testers.

All of which is legal-ish.

The sports federation's revenues are tied to producing athletes they need to broadcast being competitive, possibly winning. The sport's federation's biggest sponsor and the federation has to serve the sponsor. Now the sports federation is under tremendous pressure to never test some athletes positive.

The system as it works right now does more than permit doping. It encourages it.

ryan foreman wrote:

I'm just making the point that plenty of people on this board have a problem with NOP's use of prescription drugs, even though that is legal. But on the issue of altitude tents they are silent.

I think the reason is obvious. Other Non - NOP athletes who they like use altitude tents, so that is ok. It betrays that this is all about personal hate for Salazar.

The reason people are upset about the prescription drugs is because people suspect that NOP athletes are going to a particular doctor to get prescriptions for drugs that aid performance without being medically necessary. In other words, people suspect that what's going on ISN'T legal. It may not be true, but that's the issue.

For thyroid medication to be analagous to altitude tents, the meds would have to be available over the counter (i.e., to every athlete), for the purpose of enhancing athletic performance (rather than treating a medical condition), and they would have to be approved by WADA. There are drugs like that. Caffeine is used by almost all athletes as a PED, and nobody calls it cheating. Sure, some athletes choose not to use it for ethical reasons, but it isn't the ethics of fair competition; it's something else.

I understand why that might upset people.

Here is my question: What do they want done about it and who do they want to do it?

If we are talking about Thyroid medication, well, then it is perfectly fine for people to use it, as it is not on a prohibited list. Maybe it should be, but it isn't. Do you think people can be banned for this?

The idea that meds need to be over the counter to be OK is not a very good standard. Too many countries with different regulatory schemes and cultures. Meldonium, for example, was available over the counter in some countries, with a prescription in others, and not available legally at all in others. This status was true both before and after it was placed on the banned substances list.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

If we are talking about Thyroid medication, well, then it is perfectly fine for people to use it, as it is not on a prohibited list. Maybe it should be, but it isn't. Do you think people can be banned for this?

You don't get how the game works. People like Salazar know where to get more of prescription meds through "gray" markets. More than is prescribed, is what Salazar wants. Enough more not to get popped. The TUE is claim it was approved. The problem of course is prescription abuse.

Foolish Fools wrote:

Mr. Obvious wrote:

If we are talking about Thyroid medication, well, then it is perfectly fine for people to use it, as it is not on a prohibited list. Maybe it should be, but it isn't. Do you think people can be banned for this?

You don't get how the game works. People like Salazar know where to get more of prescription meds through "gray" markets. More than is prescribed, is what Salazar wants. Enough more not to get popped. The TUE is claim it was approved. The problem of course is prescription abuse.

Well, you are right that I do not know how the game works, as I am just a fan with no insider connections. I am not sure what to make of your post, though, as I am not sure I understand at all what you are claiming.

Thyroid medication is legal for any athlete to use. It does not require a TUE.

It does require a prescription, at least in the US. I have no knowledge of whether this is true in other countries or not.

Maybe it should be on a banned list and require a TUE. USADA asked for it to be added but were denied. I do not really know about the science enough to know if that is a correct decision or not. I know some people claim it helps and it is used in body-building. I am pretty sure that it is an agent, that if it does help, more is not necessarily better and could be counter-productive. So, if you can get a prescription for it, I don't see why you would need to get more. Again, maybe I'm wrong and you could explain that better for me.

So, I just don't see any way that anybody can be "popped" for it. This is true for all athletes, not just Salazar's.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

I am not sure I understand at all what you are claiming.

Goodness. THAT YOU OR YOUR COACH can get more of a prescription amount--more than the dosage the doctor identifies--of almost any drug they want through GRAY and BLACK markets. Like Advil, you can always pop a few more pills than the bottle says you should. IF YOU AND YOU COACH have tests done then you know exactly how much extra you can take without getting popped.

Foolish Fools wrote:

Mr. Obvious wrote:

I am not sure I understand at all what you are claiming.

Goodness. THAT YOU OR YOUR COACH can get more of a prescription amount--more than the dosage the doctor identifies--of almost any drug they want through GRAY and BLACK markets. Like Advil, you can always pop a few more pills than the bottle says you should. IF YOU AND YOU COACH have tests done then you know exactly how much extra you can take without getting popped.

OK. I understand I can get pretty much any drug I want delivered to my door. I do understand how markets work.

If the substance I am taking is legal (like thyroid medications) then it doesn't matter how much I am taking, because I will not get popped regardless, because I am not violating a standard (even if it may be unethical).

I assume you are making a point about Salazar and his athletes. What substances are you alleging they are getting more of through the black or gray market? I assume this is something different than thyroid.

I do think, and have stated, that Alberto's testosterone experiments on his son may be something that can be sanctioned. Definitely a banned substance, definitely an abuse of the process such as you are proposing.

We have wandered so far off the original premise of this thread, which is whether Dr. Brown can be compelled to testify.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

OK. I understand I can get pretty much any drug I want delivered to my door. I do understand how markets work.

We have wandered so far off the original premise of this thread, which is whether Dr. Brown can be compelled to testify.

You fail to see how it works. First, you never, never get extra drugs delivered to your door. Only the allowed prescription amounts. The extra gets delivered in the best way you can hide it--an unknowing person or postal drop location.

Second, Dr. Brown has given Salazar letters about dosages an athlete can take without every mentioning a name. Saying "that athlete" can take X amount of Y. The name is never revealed. Such a letter can be used for any athlete. Dr. Brown's dosage would give Salazar a starting point for testing to make sure too much is not taken.

Dr. Brown needs to answer up. If he has nothing to hide he can willing talk to the USADA. By refusing, and looking to block his testimony, it seems obvious he is hiding something. If he doesn't testify the USADA can ban any athlete who chooses to use Dr. Brown, or any doctor, who refuses to cooperate with an investigation.

I disagree that Brown's refusal to "testify" in these instances makes him look guilty. He is protecting himself from getting sued. Based on a very brief reading of the opposition to USADA's request, USADA wanted Dr. Brown to testify beyond the scope of the 7 individuals who signed authorizations. If I may be permitted to read between the lines, and guess a bit, I think we can "guess" that USADA had authorization from someone like Kara Goucher. But USADA did not just want information about Goucher's treatment, they also wanted information about other athletes who have not signed releases - say for instance - Galen Rupp. (I am using examples, I have no idea who has or has not treated with Dr. Brown.) The point is - USADA wanted Dr. Brown to testify about people who had not given permission to release their privileged and confidential medical information. Thus, if Dr. Brown were to do so voluntarily, or produce medical records voluntarily, he would be subjected to a medical malpractice action for each athlete he discusses who has not signed an authorization for him to do so. If you really want to read up on this further - go to http://www.hhs.gov/hipaa/for-professionals/privacy/Further, USADA wanted him to "testify under oath." It has no authority to require such an action. I wholeheartedly agree that USADA has probably found something worth looking into and is pursuing every avenue possible to investigate. But USADA is very limited in the methods which it can utilize to achieve its end goal. USADA's moves concerning Dr. Brown going forward are: 1) Obtain the records and try to obtain any further information about the athletes who have signed authorizations; 2) If there is any evidence of improper medical treatment, then refer the matter to the Texas Medical Board for further investigation. (Bearing in mind, the Medical Board may be able to keep its investigations confidential because of patient privacy concerns); and3) If USADA or the Texas Medical Board finds any evidence of potential criminal wrongdoing, refer the matter to the local or federal prosecutors. USADA could then piggyback off of the prosecutors' discovery for the information that it seeks to learn. (Piggybacking is how USADA was able to get Lance).

I think you don't know what "conflict of interest" means. I didn't say anything about dependencies.

CGeorgeRun wrote:

I disagree that Brown's refusal to "testify" in these instances makes him look guilty. He is protecting himself from getting sued.

It doesn't matter. Lack of cooperation should be a ban from using a doctor who prescribes controlled drugs. Dr Brown can protect himself. The end result is he can no longer treat athletes.