is his training actually as good as people say and do you have any experiences with it?
is his training actually as good as people say and do you have any experiences with it?
He has his own system that he started from scratch, which can't be said about many other people.
Like every other training program, some people respond to it better than others. His training is "that good" for Drew Hunter, probably many other people, but not all people.
Razcko had a system that worked great for Alan Webb.
Timmons had a system that worked for Jim Ryun (and horribly for most everyone else).
Hunter seems to respond very well to Schwartz's program. I think Schwartz is a very knowledgable coach, and I have been blown away by his knowledge when I have read his stuff.
Having said that, Drew has a dad who ran 13:36 for 5k and Drew is clearly more talented than that himself. He is an elite genetic talent with few equals among American HS distance running. It rubs me the wrong way when Schwartz plays down Hunter's genetic talent in favor of talking up his system all the time (see his past remarks that there were 10-15 Drew Hunters out there every year just waiting for proper, i.e. his, coaching methodology).
Great coaches can make great talent better, but if you don't start with an elite athlete to begin with, you may as well try to build a nice dining table out of plywood.
I was coached by Tinman a few years ago during my senior year of high school. I had done extensive research into coaches, and chose him. He is a very good coach, as he was before he coached the super-talent of Drew Hunter. I saw very good results during my senior XC season. Tinman is one of the best coaches in America for those who are naturally 1500m and above athletes. He is accessible to anyone willing to pay for his private coaching service, and he has his own running forum with 3000 of his own posts in which he shares a wealth of knowledge.
I have some interaction with Tom and never found him as self absorbed as you imply. But realize 10-15 people isn't that many in a country this size and I'm pretty sure there are quite a few sub 14 minute 5k dads out there so perhaps that estimation isn't as far fetched as you think.
The larger point is that there probably still is a ton of talent either being undeveloped or run into the ground at an early age.
Maybe there is something to what you are saying. Schwartz had one interview last winter when Hunter was hitting some really hot times that rubbed me the wrong way. Other than that, he does seem pretty down-to-earth.
There is no question that if I had a really talented kid I would put him on a short list of coaches in a heartbeat.
Gotta agree with you, insightlessness, though I don't have personal history with the Tinman. Based on genetics alone, there are scores of children of top-dog distance runners out there. Just as Marc and Joan Hunter (Drew's dad and mom) didn't reach the same national levels in HS that their son did, there must be 10-15 genetically-advantaged kids, easily, who haven't reached elite HS status, but who have POTENTIAL for national greatness, even record-level greatness.
Potential is reached via many different influences melding successfully, not that it happens too often. (Coaching has to be part of it!) But there's potential...lots of it...among HS distance runners. And that's just the genetically gifted kids. So many runners who attain greatness aren't "chips off the old block", but, instead, succeed in the sport far beyond what genetics would have suggested.
I'd say the Tinman's estimate is pretty darn decent. I don't see it as any kind of boast, either. I hope more parents who can afford it will give him a chance to make their son or daughter shine, not that there can ever be a guarantee, of course.
" there are quite a few sub 14 minute 5k dads out there so perhaps that estimation isn't as far fetched as you think."
POD
Most genetically advantaged people coast on their genetic advantage.
Tinman quote from 5/26:
“I figure he’s in sub-13:30 shape right now, about 13:28, 13:29 for 5,000 meters,†Schwartz said. “Yes, I know that’s very fast but he’s he’s easily capable of that right now. I think he’s in about 8:21/8:22 shape for two miles.â€
You all really think there are 10-15 kids a year out there who can hit that? That there are a dozen HS kids a year with great genes ready to pop out a sub 13:30 with Tinman's training? This is Tinman's assessment of his own athlete.
I also think it was a bit arrogant that they were talking about Drew pacing off of Ben Blankenship like it was no big deal at the Pre mile. There have been two high schoolers who could legitimately run with pros: Webb and Ryun.
I don't root against Hunter or Tinman. But if Scott Razcko had said that Alan Webb wasn't that special, I'd call him wrong too.
Call it what it is: an excellent coach has a once-every-decade athlete. Let's not pretend that Tinman turned a guy who would run 9:10 with a decent coach into what Hunter is today.
From what I understand, Hunter was coached by his parents up to the 2015 Footlocker CC Championships, so let's give the Tinman-Drew Hunter, coach-athlete relationship some time to evolve. He was pretty good pre-Tinman, but had an impressive indoor campaign working with Tinman. The best coaches rely on that day-to-day interaction/feedback (verbal and visual) with their athletes, so my guess is that the Hunters and Tinman work closely together to cover that distance gap.
VA Coach wrote:
Hunter was coached by his parents up to the 2015 Footlocker CC Championships
That's not correct. Tinman wrote the training schedules while his mom did the day-to-day coaching.
Tom has had his hand in Drew's coaching for several years. Who knows exactly what that means because,
"The best coaches rely on that day-to-day interaction/feedback (verbal and visual) with their athletes, so my guess is that the Hunters and Tinman work closely together to cover that distance gap."
this type of triangle isn't tried very often and may be unique in terms of success. The Webb and Raczko type relationship has been seen many times.
Tom knows way more about things like how many kids have Drew's ability than anyone on here. Where Tom is vulnerable is the day to day. You can only know so much long distance and so his predictions are only as good as his understanding of the information he is getting. I think Drew is very much someone who can deal with the long distance coach keeping him from doing too much. Most other similarly talented HS kids would fail miserably with Drew's arrangement. This may be the most unique part of Drew's talent.
Thanks for that. Too much nonsense about genetics on these Drew Hunter/Tinman threads.
Genetics is just an excuse that too many bad coaches and badly coached runners use. Physical talent is very common. Mental talent? Maybe not so much?
Jon Orange wrote:
Thanks for that. Too much nonsense about genetics on these Drew Hunter/Tinman threads.
Genetics is just an excuse that too many bad coaches and badly coached runners use. Physical talent is very common. Mental talent? Maybe not so much?
Jonny, my boy, mental talent is common too.
Mr Schwartz was run out of this forum several years ago. His theoretical understanding is based on the shortcomings of his own body.
He lucked out with Hunter.
Mental talent common? You sure old boy?
So why are so many runners with obvious abilty lacking in conficence?
Actually, Joan Hunter wrote Drew's training up to the summer before his senior year. But she has coached using Tom's ideas for years and knows his methods pretty well, and uses them for the whole Loudoun Valley team, which has had good success in the last 3 years since the Hunters took over the team.
Following a coaching plan long distance is not ideal, but with two experienced coaches watching Drew daily, monitoring how he feels, what he looks like, doing all the hands on coaching stuff (not just at practice, but at home), it appears to be working pretty well.