training wrong?

You have some talent. What year of HS are you, when did you start training?

Try to listen to your body, and make sure that you do some days super easy or off - these are recovery days - and in between some days faster where you're not tying up with heavy legs but still moving fast and feel good.

How did you feel the day after the long run? Did you feel back to normal 2 days later? 3 days later? If you're still sore more than 2 days later it was probalby too long a run to be very productive for 800m-5K, and possibly too fast. It's pretty cool that you have the willpower and talent to run 20 miles though - this tells me that once you get training consistently you'll do well in long distances too.

For recovery days, try to run as effortlessly as you can. Think about it, you can run 1 mile in 5:03. That's moving pretty fast. So running a mile in 7 or 8 or 9 should be super, super easy. You should barely be breathing much and should feel almost like walking. That's the fitness you want to get to. So on your recovery days, start out running almost as slow as you possibly can, while still having a normal running motion/technique. See how your body feels, is it as easy as it should be? You'll naturally speed up over the course of the run, but keep trying to move without putting in effort. Eventually, your "effortless" pace will get down to the 6 minute range, but will take months/years.

If you "cheat" and run medium-fast all the time, your "effortless pace" won't improve much. Your 800m/mile/5k will get faster for a while since you're still relatively new to this training, but you'll lack the ability to go out and run 5-10 miles easy on days between workouts, and higher mileage will be very difficult since you won't be recovering fully.

In the mean time, your faster days and workouts will improve. But don't worry much about pace, you really don't need a watch until the season starts and I recommend leaving it at home as much as it's tempting to see your mile splits. When your legs are fresh and your stride is bouncy, run a bit faster, maybe do some strides and finish the run quick, but don't let your legs get very heavy every day.

Terrible advice.

His mileage is fine and his problem is not being weak aerobically, if he is on 40mpw as a HS student.

The biggest problem is the clear lack of talent, but OP probably already knows and accepts that.

Second problem is he is running everything too long and too slow.

At 40mpw in HS at least finish every si gle run at tempo pace or faster, even if you start slow.

You rasie good points but I differe slightly on this:

'The biggest problem is the clear lack of talent'

We all lack talent but you have to think what are you looking for.

Lets look at this more positively. He's run 2:08 in HS. That's not holding him back at 5km at the moment. He could likely get at least close to 2 mins with training and natural progression with age

I would limit long run to 10-12 miles but add additional runs to keep up the mileage. Next look at intervals hills, tempos etc but with a gradual progresssion and with as many steady runs off road as possible

Sure fair enough.

Just wanted to emphasize that the answer is most definitely not "run easy runs easier." It's going to be hard to "overtrain" i.e., "run too fast and burnout" on 40mpw. That's pretty low mileage and as a HS student you will have much more capacity to recover and bounce back quickly than a 40 yo on the same mileage.

Generally OP needs to be running faster this summer, not longer and slower. 40mpw if you're training smart and actually pushing yourself should be sufficient to get him into the 17s, 4s and closer to 2:05. Do some more fartleks, tempos, cruise intervals during your base build. Do the hills, squats and lunges to build strength, and start the XC season fast and ready to hammer some intervals.

disgraceful_admin wrote:

If you "cheat" and run medium-fast all the time, your "effortless pace" won't improve much. Your 800m/mile/5k will get faster for a while since you're still relatively new to this training, but you'll lack the ability to go out and run 5-10 miles easy on days between workouts, and higher mileage will be very difficult since you won't be recovering fully.

This is the part of the response I had the biggest issue with.

Who cares about "effortless pace??" The kid is running the 800m/mile/5k! There is no such thing as an "effortless pace" in any of those distances.

Also, who cares about the ability to go out and run 5-10 miles easy? The kid is running the 800m/mile/5k!

You're talking to him like he's some 40 year old marathoner.

10 minute pace is always too slow. That is shuffling.

Also, 40 miles in a week with a 20 mile long run?! So you ran 20 miles in a day and averaged 3.3 every other day?

The biggest thing that you need to do is improve consistency. If you want to hit 40 mpw, run 5 miles per day with a 10 mile long run or 6 miles per day with a 10 mile long run and a day off. Or, better yet, ibstead of a day off, do a lowet mileage easy day to recover after the long run. No high schooler needs to be running 20 miles at a time. Also, try to stay below 8 minute pace. Easy days can be a bit slower, but long slow distance will be useless to you unless you are running long, slow races. In high schoolx your races will be neither.

Haha wrote:

long slow distance will be useless to you unless you are running long, slow races

Spoken like every failed high school coach from the 1990s. Long, slow running is only problematic if it's literally all you do. If you also mix in some faster running, then it's the key to long term development. Increasing mileage from 40 miles per week will absolutely pay dividends, even at a very slow pace. Even ostensibly low mileage advocates still run more than 40.

Otherwise, I agree with you. The kid should be running 6-7 days/week. Running a minimum of 5 miles/day needs to be as much a habit as brushing your teeth. 10-12 is fine for a long run until the weekly mileage gets north of 60 (which, incidentally, should be a goal).

Anyway, just read some of the old John Kellogg threads on high school training. There's lots of good advice in there.

But that IS all he is doing. Running an 18:20 5k puts him at a 5:54 pace. If he is never running faster than 7:30, and sometimes going as slow as 10:00, there is no tempo, fartlek, or any sort of fast running to balance the slow, and 10:00 is really slow. Recovery days have there place, but he has nothing to recover from. I have my share of slow days, but that is too slow.

And I used the wrong their... always proofread, kids.

duck runner wrote:

Terrible advice.

His mileage is fine and his problem is not being weak aerobically, if he is on 40mpw as a HS student.

The biggest problem is the clear lack of talent, but OP probably already knows and accepts that.

Second problem is he is running everything too long and too slow.

At 40mpw in HS at least finish every si gle run at tempo pace or faster, even if you start slow.

You people are ridiculous.

He hasn't even said what year he is in. If he just finished his first year of running, freshman year, with 2:08, I've seen people like that run low 1:5X by the time they graduate. Unless he's been training for years I don't see why you would try to put a cap on his ability.

Well I've never consistently trained till this summer while I don't have a lot of talent I have enough to run an 18 minute 5k off of 15-25 mpw within a three month period.

hsloser wrote:

Well I've never consistently trained till this summer while I don't have a lot of talent I have enough to run an 18 minute 5k off of 15-25 mpw within a three month period.

That's more than enough to run 15:XX after 3 years of consistent training. No guarantees of course, but it's within the realm of possibility.

The biggest thing I have going for me is I can run high mileage days like that 20 miler and feel relatively good I don't feel sore. I was just extremely tired after and to the poster of an average of 3 mikes the other days. I ran 6 miles 2 of it tempo then the next days 6 miles easy then 6 I was supposed to run 12 miles but it turned into 20 since around 12-16 I was running under 8 minutes each mile 7:52, 7:44, 7:44, 7:43, 7:32, 7:43. I know it's not crazy fast but just those splits after I had already ran a lot of miles tells me I'm already improving right?

Well I have a team mate who runs a 4:18 mile off the same training as me but hasn't touched a sub 16 off of those times so your theory kinda makes me laugh that's like 1 in a thousand chance if that. I've seen people run 30-50 mpw who cannot run any of my times does that make my time good? No does it mean I have absolutely no talent since I cannot run a sub 16 off of 15 mpw well if it does than basically everyone on this forum needs to give up running.

I agree with disgraceful_admin. I think that recovery days should not be governed by a pace. Just go out and run it not caring about pace. Go 9 min pace. Then stay within yourself for harder efforts. I think following Summer of Malmo would be the best bet for the OP.

hsloser wrote:

The biggest thing I have going for me is I can run high mileage days like that 20 miler and feel relatively good I don't feel sore. I was just extremely tired after and to the poster of an average of 3 mikes the other days. I ran 6 miles 2 of it tempo then the next days 6 miles easy then 6 I was supposed to run 12 miles but it turned into 20 since around 12-16 I was running under 8 minutes each mile 7:52, 7:44, 7:44, 7:43, 7:32, 7:43. I know it's not crazy fast but just those splits after I had already ran a lot of miles tells me I'm already improving right?

Sure that's a great sign. But 20 miles really is a lot, it's more than the majority of collegiate 5K/8K/10K runners do as a long run. You're probably better off sticking to 12 miles or whatever your coach has you do but going a bit faster since it's shorter, and placing more emphasis on running a couple more miles the other days. Don't forget to do some strides several days a week to keep up your speed. You can do them faster and up hills once a week, with longer rest in between. Do what feels right, you sound like you have a coach who you can ask for advice if you feel like you don't know what to do.

My coach trains us like 800 runners thats why we have 4 sub 2:10 800 guys but only 2 can break 18 minutes in the 5k. I've listened to my coach she just wants us to run 25-30 miles each week which kinda frustrates me since I'm fine with fast twitch muscles I'm not crazy fast but I can run that 800 time and if you put me on a track and have me run 100 I could run under 13 seconds probably all day which isn't fast by any means but my team mates cannot do that. I beat a guy in the 800 that runs 16:30 for the 5k. My goal is a 17:30-17:20 so around 40-60 second improvement my target race is in October. I do a work out every two weeks should I make it every week?

hsloser wrote:

My coach trains us like 800 runners thats why we have 4 sub 2:10 800 guys but only 2 can break 18 minutes in the 5k. I've listened to my coach she just wants us to run 25-30 miles each week which kinda frustrates me since I'm fine with fast twitch muscles I'm not crazy fast but I can run that 800 time and if you put me on a track and have me run 100 I could run under 13 seconds probably all day which isn't fast by any means but my team mates cannot do that. I beat a guy in the 800 that runs 16:30 for the 5k. My goal is a 17:30-17:20 so around 40-60 second improvement my target race is in October. I do a work out every two weeks should I make it every week?

You should probably cut the long run down to 9-12 miles and do a workout once a week. What kind of workout are you thinking of doing?

When the season comes, focus on place not time, trying to beat as many people as you can.

I think it's going to be important to concentrate less on making your miles per week and more on increased paces while doing those miles.

With your target race in October, you need to plan backwards from the race date. A very wild guess that it will work out that you have about three-four more weeks of volume, then transitioning to intensity. I'm guessing, so I could be completely wrong.

Even with a few weeks left in a volume block, I hope you are working upper body and doing a variety of core workouts.