Canova was right! EPO does not work on trained athletes

Guys, leave Renato alone. He needs to rationalize things this way otherwise his whole life was a sham.

I think we can all agree now that the East Africa rise in running was all a fraud that started in the EPO era of the 90's.

Godwin wrote:

I think we can all agree now that the East Africa rise in running was all a fraud that started in the EPO era of the 90's.

...except that the East Africa rise started way before that, with guys like Yifter, Keino, and Bikila. They take you all the way back to the 1960's, when EPO was not available.

So no, we can't all agree.

Whether or not Renato's claims are factual or not, I would say that athletes such as Kipchoge, Kipsang, and Geoffrey Mutai are clean, and they are running at the highest levels(2:03). I think because the marathon has more to do with running economy and lactic threshold the athletes can run well off of no EPO, since they are running at a level so far below Vo2 Max and other factors come into play.

HOWEVER, is there substance to claim that EPO cannot improve athletes in an event where VO2 Max plays a large role( 1500 to 5000m)? I feel as if the 12:3x 5ks and 7:20 3000 times are not completely natural, and this is reflected in the nearly 20 second drop in World Leading 5000 times. I personally believe that athletes can be the best in the world at the marathon without drugs. Can athletes be the GOAT in the 1500-5000 without drugs though?

I'm working, at the moment, with some athlete who can reach the top position in the all time lists (especially one who I hope can better the WR of 1500m in two years time). These athletes train without any support, also legal, and we can test them every day. One of them, particularly, has the same level of talent I saw in Stephen Cherono when still junior.

I hope to have the answer to your question, in short time.

And, on the other side, if Souleyman was on doping (maybe yes or not), looking at his natural talent, his results were nothing of special, so doping didn't help him in any case. This can be one reason because I still believe he can be clean.

not quite so fast wrote:

Godwin wrote:

I think we can all agree now that the East Africa rise in running was all a fraud that started in the EPO era of the 90's.

...except that the East Africa rise started way before that, with guys like Yifter, Keino, and Bikila. They take you all the way back to the 1960's, when EPO was not available.

So no, we can't all agree.

That wasn't really the rise of running in East Africa though was it? There were a few exceptional athletes over a period of decades.

EPO hit the streets and now it became complete dominance.

This latest bust is just the tip of the iceberg that is the East African distance running scam. I appreciate there are many naturally talented athletes from EA and they would have won many medals on a level playing field, but the doping boom of the 90s and beyond has essentially destroyed the sport.

Thanks Renato and friends.

DukeBoss wrote:

@Canova thanks for your input.

Important to note about this study is that it isn't published yet, I am dutch, this was on the national news but i cannot find any source or link to a publications about this.

Meaning its kind of hard to tell if the study is constructive or not.

In other words were they doping and testing the right way.

Not that i know how to do this.

Perhaps the vit C + iron +b12 cocktail + regular epo shots.

Then a bi-weekly time trial.

This is an excellent point, unless they were also taking iron supplements they weren't doping properly. Epo alone is actually fairly ineffectual short term without iron supplementation. This has also been previously documented.

Personally I'm not holding my breath waiting for the published paper. There's a good chance it won't get passed peer review

you are so right--its a TRAINING AID!!!!!!!!!! I laugh every time a stupid ignoramus says "just train hard, bruh." That's what they do!!!

trollism wrote:

not quite so fast wrote:

...except that the East Africa rise started way before that, with guys like Yifter, Keino, and Bikila. They take you all the way back to the 1960's, when EPO was not available.

So no, we can't all agree.

That wasn't really the rise of running in East Africa though was it? There were a few exceptional athletes over a period of decades.

EPO hit the streets and now it became complete dominance.

This latest bust is just the tip of the iceberg that is the East African distance running scam. I appreciate there are many naturally talented athletes from EA and they would have won many medals on a level playing field, but the doping boom of the 90s and beyond has essentially destroyed the sport.

Thanks Renato and friends.

My point exactly. Thanks.

Cool. A registered imposter. Many of the real blood doping experts here think Paula did not take EPO, but only "took" autologuous blood transfusions, some even speculating she probably thought/thinks it is not cheating. This is because her "suspicious" blood values were only marginally above sea-level thresholds, and showed large increases in a matter of days.I have said for years that EPO is virtually unstudied for any elite athletes (any sport) at peak fitness. Most of what us written about EPO in newspapers and forums is based on non-scientific anecdotes and faith.

rekru-n-n-n-er wrote:

I'm glad this study confirms what I've been saying for years. There's no way that the EPO that Radcliffe took helped her performance. She was just scammed by her doctors into paying for a lot for treatments.

She would've gone 2:15 even without the EPO.

Yes, there were guys like Yifter, Keino ,and Bikila. Fantastic runners. And more besides, Rono, Bayi, and so on. The question is whether the complete and utter domination that came beginning in the 1990s and has continued to this day is based on hard work, altitude, and natural talent alone. It is obvious that there wouldn't be such domination without the drugs and absence of testing. A level playing field is what there would be.

jjjjjj wrote:

Yes, there were guys like Yifter, Keino ,and Bikila. Fantastic runners. And more besides, Rono, Bayi, and so on. The question is whether the complete and utter domination that came beginning in the 1990s and has continued to this day is based on hard work, altitude, and natural talent alone. It is obvious that there wouldn't be such domination without the drugs and absence of testing. A level playing field is what there would be.

True. Without the politics allowing drug use, the E. Africans would have the highest percentage of top performers, but we wouldn't see the complete domination (for the most part) we now see with the politics and horrific hypocrites and liars like Canova in on the show. A lot of what has been seen the past 25 years is artificial. Period.

Renato, you assert that you have trained clean athletes to world record levels, however, that alone does not prove that EPO wouldn't help your athletes. The riddle goes: if EPO is so effective, why aren't the cheaters reaching levels that clean athletes cannot match? Well, I think that we may have just seen that happen. A top athlete born, raised and trained at altitude, Genzebe Dibaba, worked with a top coach, Jama Aden, who apparently had access to EPO and the result was a performance 5 seconds better than the world's best over 1500m. The aswer to the riddle appears to be that, yes, top athletes + top coaches + EPO does indeed produce unreachable times.Unless you have tried administering EPO to your athletes, I don't understand how you can be so confident of statements like the following:

How do you know that the effects of EPO and altitude training are not cumulative? You point out that certain blood values respond differently to altitude training than to EPO use:

but that only proves that altitude training works by more mechanisms than simply stimulating EPO production.

You state that correct altitude training is better than EPO use:

and this may well be true but logically this does not imply that the effects of altitude training and EPO injection are somehow non-additive. It is apparently a firmly held view of yours the EPO cannot improve the performances of top altitude born, raised and trained athletes but I do not find your evidence convincing. Unless you've tested EPO on some of your athletes, how can you really be sure it doesn't work?

Of course I never tested EPO with my athletes. The point is that there are "researches" saying with EPO it's possible to have 40" / 1' of advantage in 10000m, till 4 minutes for marathon, 7" for 3000m.

I had in my career the WR holder of steeple (7'53"63), and absolutely can't suppose he could be able running 7'46" taking EPO.

I had 9 athletes under 26'55" in 10000m (the best Nicholas Kemboi 26'30" after 2 months of training in St. Moritz, coming from 28'19") : can I really think they could run under 26' taking EPO ?

I had a marathon runner running 2:03.6 in his first marathon : could he run under 2 hours if I gave him EPO ?

I have the WR holder of 15 km, 20 km and HM, all in the same competition, and the previous record of 15 km was of Tirunesh Dibaba, who ran a race of 15 km only : for which reason I had to think Dibaba had to be doped, for running slower than Florence Kiplagat in a competition of 15 km only, while Florence ran HM ?

Since I'm totally sure about my athletes, which whom I spend full years, sometime in the same apartment, if not in the same room (as in the case of Nicholas Kemboi), or my athletes were the most talented in the World, able to beat WR clean and all the other top athletes doped, or, if their talent is in the average of the top athletes in the World, also the other, running with the same times, or are clean, or, if doped, don't have any advantage.

Here there is the general idea that ALL THE WR ARE DOPED. I know that is not true, because 6 of the WR are from my athletes, and they were clean. I know also that the most part of the athletes at the top of the world are clean. So, for which reason have I to suppose that EPO can enhance performances ?

It's out of every doubt that EPO can increase the ability to transport Oxygen.

The problem is that nobody looks at the DISADVANTAGES there are taking EPO, and at the end the performance is the product of the best possible balance among several factors. This means that physiologists had to research not only the advantages EPO can produce, but also the DISADVANTAGES, and this never happened.

The same can happen in training. Everybody knows that, lifting weights, athletes can increase their muscle strength. However, if a marathon runner lifts weights, in spite to become stronger as muscle power, he runs slower than before, because too much muscle strength increases the consumption of fuel, and this is the worse situation for a marathon runner.

Training is the combination of a lot of factor, instead seems that taking some drug automatically the performances can improve. I strongly contest this idea : I can say that taking steroids can bring the body in a situation not recheable with training only, but, about blood doping, I continue to say that if we have the full training in altitude, at the level, like intensity and volume, used by the best athletes, the advantages EPO can produce are less than the DISADVANTAGES we can have.

And, finally, everybody needs to understand that the final goal of a coach is not to enhance the values of Hct and Hb, but to make the athlete faster.

For doing this, we must experiment different situations in training, and when we do this, we can see improvement if training is proper, or stagnation when is useless, or decrease in the personal performances, when damageous.

Of course there are coaches giving EPO or drugs to the athletes.

In October 2015, I was called by the chief of Development in Russia to go there for a clinic with all the National Russian coaches, for explaining how it's possible to achieve top performances, with a totally "clean" training.

What I discovered is that Russian coaches don't have absolutely any clue about a correct type of training without using PEDs. If you normally give athletes steroids and EPO, you NEVER go to altitude (Russian don't have this methodology in their tradition), you can't know HOW TO REACH THE SAME RESULTS CLEAN.

I started to tell them : "Do you know that in 2015 no Russian athletes were able to run in 5000m like Vladimir Kuts did, alone, in Rome in 1957, when he bettered the WR running 13'35" ? Or the 10000m like Pyotr Bolotnikov, running near 28' in 1960 ? So, before looking at your "new system", including steroids and blood manipulation, why you don't try to use again the base of running you used more than 50 years ago ?".

When I read the article about Stepanova, where it's written "Russian coaches told me not possible running under 2:05 in 800m without doping", I not only laugh, but think how our world is full of idiots who don't understand anything about the real training.

I can accept that, for running 1'55", a woman must have or really big talent (and nobody of the Russian winning WCh had similar level of talent), or must take steroids, but for running around 1'57" she doesn't need to take anything, if with high/medium talent : she needs a good training only.

I continue to point my finger on the mentality, that years ago was better than today. We need high volume of training, and inside this volume the intensity must continuously increase, till a level that 30 years ago was normal, but today is considered "crazy".

This is the only way, for reaching top results with clean training, but we MUST BELIEVE in training, excluding doping from our mind.

Hey Renato.

What happened to Alex Schwazer from Italy?

It looks like Alex still has weak mind disease.

It does not look like Alex was able to exclude doping from his mind.

Why didn't Alex just BELIEVE in his training?

Alex Schwazer is not going to be able to go to the Rio Olympics...where you said he would PROVE that a top performance could be achieved CLEAN.

What do you think about this news Renato?

Did you read the story in the newspaper about Alex Schwazer from Italy?

I read the story.

I thought I would mention it to you... just in case you had not read the new story about Alex.

I have given the links so that you can read the new story about Alex Schwazer.

Do you have any comments on the story about Alex Schwazer?

Ridiculo!

rjm33 wrote:

Do you have any comments on the story about Alex Schwazer?

Good morning. You should read the links: clearly he is innocent, because, I cite, " the newspaper report was “false and unbelievable”."

Soon rekrunner will wake up and explain how this coincidentally happened. Possibly a typo, or 90 degrees somewhere or something.

The head of the Italian federation is "shocked".

Why am I not shocked?

I also remember Renato told me I was crazy and had mental disease.

No. Coach Renato Canova was wrong.

Alex Schwazer has weak mind disease.

You do have a mental disease. Look how much nonsense you post here. Go on take a look. Can you really assert that your OCD lunacy is the product of a sane and rational mind?

As for you knowledge of physiology, there is not much evidence of that.