Canova was right! EPO does not work on trained athletes

Give them some credit. They tried it and did not find any confirming results. That does not mean that other methods won't find those results.

casual obsever wrote:

HobbyYuggurt wrote:

But, elites do not only use EPO, how many experimental, not popular drugs are used? But yeah I read somewhere that raw and fresh root beet juice does more for elites than EPO.

The best are ostrich and calf blood as well as actovegin.

Isn't use of animal blood proscribed in the Old Testament as an abomination and immorality? Along with eating animals while they are alive, human sacrifice and a host of other unpalatable behaviors?

#doping

#christians

#familymen

There is actually nothing revolutionally new in the findings of the Dutch study and the writing was on the wall for some decades on the possible inefficacy of EPO. For instance, a 1987 review article (by Michael Sawka et all) found that the elevation of Vo2MAX through transfusion was only half in athletes with Vo2MAX values above 65 than those with values between 50 and 65, so there is a point of diminishing returns and one open question is whether the advantage indeed falls to zero with the fittest of the elite athletes. Naturally most of the work of elite endurance athletes is submaximal, so the relevance of whole Vo2MAX could be questioned also.

Interestingly when exercise physiologist Ross Tucker reviewed results of an EPO study, which showed an enormous 13 percent increase in peak power output, he also claims almost in passing that it is unlikely that the effect would be similar in elites:

Tucker doesn't give the readers any good reason why this is so, but apparently intuitionally even he seems to think that the physiology is different in elite athletes and the limiting factors on performance could also be different.

That having been written, it is difficult to comment on the specifics of the Dutch experiment until it is published.

1000 wrote:

Hopefully, they performed blood tests on the placebo group as well. If they did not, then they are complete idiots.

They are not complete idiots. Not testing the placebo group would give away which group is the placebo en which one not.

The only case where an increase in the number of red cells in circulation does not improve performance is in individuals that naturally have extremely high blood values.

Their point does not differ much from yours. Research has only proven that EPO helps people with extremely low hematocrit levels (due to illness). In this case one would see performance increases when increasing the hematocrit level from say, 25 to 35 (I'm not sure about these numbers and they should only be taken as an example, if you want to be sure, look up the research). This research is trying to study whether this is also the case with well trained athletes (I guess their levels would be between 40-48).

So as mentioned, the tests on the hometrainer could show a significant increase in VO2max, but that does not necessarily translate into better performance when climbing Mont Ventoux.

Canova was right! EPO does not work on trained athletes.

You are VERY unfair: Renato did not say that!!!!!

He repeatedly stated that blood doping does not work for AFRICAN TOP-TOP-CHAMPIONS who are both BORN and TRAIN in altitude!

But wait, Genzebe DIBABA IS an African top-top-champion born and training in altitude... Oups!...

Gmuze wrote:

1000 wrote:

Hopefully, they performed blood tests on the placebo group as well. If they did not, then they are complete idiots.

They are not complete idiots. Not testing the placebo group would give away which group is the placebo en which one not.

Test both groups.

Just from the media release you can see a number of issues.

A 3 month study, the athletes base level of fitness assessed 2 months ago, how much training and time did they actually have on the epo?

They cycles 120km before climbing Mt Ventoux, it's the final climb that is being compared. The question is why use a race when you could control variables far better in a lab. There are so many variables to consider in a race like this, if the placebo group just happened to draft all day of course they will be faster up the hill, but actually what the results seem like they are saying is that they found no statistical difference. In other words, with only 24 people on each group and huge variables to compensate for, the study was underpowered.

Finally, these aren't the top elites that Renato refers to so actually the study is nothing new. Epo has been tested on elite athletes before and parameters measured under controlled conditions. Vo2 max increases. The upper limit is governed by pulmonary capacity.

1000 wrote:

Idiotic experiments like these were the reason why so many academics believed that anabolic steroids did not work.

There is a huge problem when performing such experiments. It is incredibly difficult to find clean athletes to begin with!

If it is confirmed that they performed no drug testing, then these academics should return their PhD’s and ask for a refund.

You think lots of academics do not believe anabolic steroids work.

You think a lot of them are idiots. They should return their degrees and ask for a refund.

You are a real 'expert'.

Ross Tucker is not going to have to return his PhD.

Ridiculo!

If EPO does not help to increase performance in amateur or elite athletes then neither does altitude training!

EPO, blood transfusions and altitude training all lead to the same thing, an increase in red blood cells.

All three methods achieve the same thing but by different means. The effect of EPO and blood transfusions on blood values is far greater than altitude training.

EPO is irrelevant. The blood values of the two groups needs to be compared.

Like androgenic/anabolic steroids, there will be an optimal dose of EPO for a particular athlete. Pushing blood values too high will offer no benefit.

In addition, the maximum benefit of EPO will only be achieved if the athlete is simultaneously engaging in intensive training.

Many biological systems are used while cycling or running; therefore, it is possible that an athlete will not be able to utilise fully the increase in red blood cells if his body gives out due to something else.

I'm glad this study confirms what I've been saying for years. There's no way that the EPO that Radcliffe took helped her performance. She was just scammed by her doctors into paying for a lot for treatments.

She would've gone 2:15 even without the EPO.

1000 wrote:

This experiment is analogous to going to a crack house to determine the effect of crack cocaine on humans. You give 10 crack addicts some extra crack cocaine and you let another 10 crack addicts do whatever they want to. You then come to the conclusion that crack cocaine has no effect on humans.

Brilliant!

Plasma shift wrote:

Epo has been tested on elite athletes before and parameters measured under controlled conditions. Vo2 max increases. The upper limit is governed by pulmonary capacity.

One should add that EPO is also reported to enhance recovery, and thus enable harder training + more mileage.

See for example the sprinters taking EPO, while they typically don't care about VO2max or altitude training.

casual obsever wrote:

One should add that EPO is also reported to enhance recovery, and thus enable harder training + more mileage.

See for example the sprinters taking EPO, while they typically don't care about VO2max or altitude training.

EPO allow harder training only for weak minds. Recovery is imagination. Runner want to run hard, he run hard. He not need this recovery you make excuses for. Elite runner train hard because strong mind.

rjm33, you are a doctor. Explain to me whether EPO would actually do anything to improve performance in such a short period?

EPO is reportedly used by taking several injections across a period of time as it takes time for the drug to work. Does that not negate this whole experiments proceedure?

No, EPO and altitude training DON'T LEAD TO THE SAME THING.

With EPO you can increase (not always, but frequently) the production of eritrocytes. With altitude training, you can not only increase this production (if you come from sea level), but also can ibcrease the affinity between Hb and Oxygen, that doesn't change in case of EPO.

Finally, for athletes living and always training in altitude, there is NO INCREASE in their RBC, but in their volume (MCV).

Till when people continue to put all in the same pott, of course there are persons like you believing wrong informations. The real problem is the most part of "scientists" go to look for the same thing only, and with the same type of people only (amateur).

That's the reason because I have a totally different point of view about EPO, and I produced WR holder completely clean, not only because I have ethic values, but also because REALLY EPO COULD'N HELP THEM.

One of the doubts I can have about Genzebe Dibaba is that she, born and normally living and training in high altitude, followed Jama for the last part of training in Sabadell (190m of altitude). There is no Kenyan, and no Ethiopian, who can accept to move from altitude to sea level during a long last period of preparation, since at sea level the AEROBIC POWER is less stimulated and decreases a little.

In this case, it's possible the athlete can try to maintain the same level using EPO or some blood doping, adding the advantage that, at sea level, it's possible to run faster (advantage under biomechanical side).

But I continue to say that with EPO a top athlete can reach the 90% of his aerobic potential in shorter time than with training, BUT THAT AFTER 90% EPO CAN'T REPLACE THE EFFECT OF TRAINING.

So, if you want to see somebody EPO doped, the category of research are the following :

1) Athletes able for long time to have very tough LACTIC WORKOUTS, that go to lower the Lactic Threshold, when they don't use fast long run, or fast long intervals, which are the base for maintaining the aerobic level in spite of tough lactic training (examples : Maroccan busted, such as Brahim Boulami or Rashid Ramzi, never running long and fast)

2) Athletes coming from some injury that stopped their training for 3-5 months, who want to come back at a good aerobic level in short time, for not losing the season. In this case, they can use EPO as shortcut, for reaching the same aerobic level reacheable with longer period of training, BUT THIS AEROBIC LEVEL IS THE BASIC LEVEL FOR STARTING THE SPECIFIC TRAINING, when EPO can't help in any case.

3) Athletes born, living and training in altitude, who maintain their shape living for long periods at sea level.

4) Athletes of second or third level, who hope to fill the gap with the best using blood manipulation.

Apart these categories, EPO is totally useless. Maybe we need to wait some year, but at the end everybody can reach this conclusion (exactly what can happen with meldonium : this is a "fashion" for all the athletes "weak in their mind", since it's difficult to believe that a drug helping marathon runners, wrestler, volley players, basket players, shooters, swimmers, hammer throwers, high jumper, cyclists and chess players can exist...).

So, it's clear that the first step is to quit to think that human performances need to have supports of every kind of drug for becoming better.

I want athletes believing in themselves, not in some external aid.

My argument is approximately correct.

EPO, blood transfusions and altitude training are very similar in terms of changes in red blood cells, but each method has many other effects on the human body as well.

Typically, an EPO using athlete is also using blood transfusions and engaging in arduous altitude training. They are also using a number of different drugs as well.

The fundamental point is that EPO and blood transfusions increase blood values to levels that CANNOT be achieved naturally.

This study is arguing that such blood values are of no benefit to elite athletes, but such blood values are of benefit to cr@p athletes.

I believe that this study is cr@p.

This is the anabolic steroids fiasco all over again.

https://youtu.be/EKWaJ_7PPXE?t=30m20s

@Canova thanks for your input.

Important to note about this study is that it isn't published yet, I am dutch, this was on the national news but i cannot find any source or link to a publications about this.

Meaning its kind of hard to tell if the study is constructive or not.

In other words were they doping and testing the right way.

Not that i know how to do this.

Perhaps the vit C + iron +b12 cocktail + regular epo shots.

Then a bi-weekly time trial.

Isn't a coach an external aid?

1000 wrote:

The effect of EPO and blood transfusions on blood values is far greater than altitude training.

"far greater" does not sufficiently describe the difference. It's revolutionary compared to altitude effects.

If my recollection is correct, the current scientific opinion is "Live High Train Low" is the most effective method of increasing RBC. The increases are barely measurable compared to EPO use.

Other methods of altitude training have mixed results in experiments.