Donavan Brazier Training: 20-30MPW?

Yes, imagine if he had stayed with Johnny Gray. Maybe the reason he moved on from Gray wasn't due to feeling lonely in Orlando but because Gray wanted to increase his mileage and intensity and throw out everything that worked for brazier. Things definitely worked out for the best with Donovan

Lol. Yes, any day now the guy that hasn't PRd in 2 years is going to run the world record. Gonna run that 1:39 for sure. Still waiting 4 years since the dingusses started proclaiming their saint is going to run that time.

I’ll never understand why it’s so hard for people to understand everyone is different training wise, some people excel with a lot of mileage, others with less, not that hard to get, no one person is the same

dingusplus wrote:

Lol. Yes, any day now the guy that hasn't PRd in 2 years is going to run the world record. Gonna run that 1:39 for sure. Still waiting 4 years since the dingusses started proclaiming their saint is going to run that time.

When did I ever say 1:39 or a WR, Moran?

Bythebay12 wrote:

Yes, imagine if he had stayed with Johnny Gray. Maybe the reason he moved on from Gray wasn't due to feeling lonely in Orlando but because Gray wanted to increase his mileage and intensity and throw out everything that worked for brazier. Things definitely worked out for the best with Donovan

This. Too many 800 guys get ruined in college because they run well off of 20-30 now, and some distance coach thinks "wow! Think he much better he would be if he trained in the complete opposite way and ran 50 now and did xc?!"

400/800 and 800-specialist type runners still need to work on aerobic endurance but not with high mileage, long runs and tempos.

just a guy being a dude wrote:

400/800 and 800-specialist type runners still need to work on aerobic endurance but not with high mileage, long runs and tempos.

Please elaborate, anybody who knows ... does this mean like 4 × 1200m repeats with equal time recovery, standing rest? 5 x 1000m or 6 x 800m with 200m jog? 12 x 400m with 100m jog? All of the above? None of the above? How about 12 x 300m hills, jogback recovery?

There’s things like aerobic intervals, it’s something I’ve experimented with and have gained a lot of efficiency and economy with all the way up through 3k/2 miles. Here’s some workouts I do, as someone with about 1:55-1:56 800m fitness currently trying to run low 8:50s in the 3k.

800m on, 400m off, 400m on, 400m off, repeat.

800s in 2:35-2:40, on 400s in 65-68, off 400s in 2:00. I’ll do 5-6 sets.

400m reps in lane 8 with walk back to starting line for rest, 1:15s give or take 2 seconds, 12-16 reps.

200m on/off, ons in 32-34, offs at 7:30-8:00 pace, 2-3 miles per session

100m on/off, ons sub 15, possibly high 13s, SLOW jog offs, 1 mile at a time, 2-3 miles.

All of these workouts when done at the proper paces feel a lot like threshold/tempo work effort wise, keep your HR in that tempo/threshold zone, yet should have you running much faster than tempo pace in certain zones. The last 2 workouts I listed can be pretty lactic/speed endurance if you push them hard, but all of these sessions I feel can replace tempo/aerobic sessions, with a better stimulus for 800m runners and maybe even milers.

need some clarification wrote:

just a guy being a dude wrote:

400/800 and 800-specialist type runners still need to work on aerobic endurance but not with high mileage, long runs and tempos.

Please elaborate, anybody who knows ... does this mean like 4 × 1200m repeats with equal time recovery, standing rest? 5 x 1000m or 6 x 800m with 200m jog? 12 x 400m with 100m jog? All of the above? None of the above? How about 12 x 300m hills, jogback recovery?

You've got it, all of these workouts would be perfect. Long intervals and short intervals with high volume at 10k-3k pace. These types of runners are going to need more rest than a true distance runner, so the typical rest a distance guy might need won't be enough for the 800-guy. Think 2-4 minutes rest on the 800-1200 reps, and a 1-1.5 s rest for the 400's. Since strength is going to be their weakness, you have to make sure these types of runners are getting adequate rest or else they will be digging themselves in a hole very quick. Hills are also great. Fartleks can't be left out either and should be done in place of tempos.

A lot of the 800 coaches I have had have also played around with doing longer intervals with a sprint at the end. My hs coach during xc had us do 500s with first 400 @ 5k, last 100 as fast as you could manage. The hardest workout I ever did was a hs workout during outdoor where we did 4x1k with last 200 sprint (it was supposed to go like 2:20 then 30 last 200). In college, we did 900s at a good effort with last 150 fast (usually 4-5 with long recoveries). I think this works well to improve endurance and maintain speed at the same time, but shouldn't be done too often.

All of this during the end of summer through the fall, in the context of a 30ish (give or take depending on the athlete) mile week with normal distance runs and some shorter faster stuff and possibly a long run (45-60 minutes, but not always necessary) will make for a great base for the 400/800 or 800-specialist runner. Just ask Donovan Brazier, Duane Solomon, David Rudisha, Elliot Giles, etc.

CopperRunner wrote:

There’s things like aerobic intervals, it’s something I’ve experimented with and have gained a lot of efficiency and economy with all the way up through 3k/2 miles. Here’s some workouts I do, as someone with about 1:55-1:56 800m fitness currently trying to run low 8:50s in the 3k.

800m on, 400m off, 400m on, 400m off, repeat.

800s in 2:35-2:40, on 400s in 65-68, off 400s in 2:00. I’ll do 5-6 sets.

400m reps in lane 8 with walk back to starting line for rest, 1:15s give or take 2 seconds, 12-16 reps.

200m on/off, ons in 32-34, offs at 7:30-8:00 pace, 2-3 miles per session

100m on/off, ons sub 15, possibly high 13s, SLOW jog offs, 1 mile at a time, 2-3 miles.

I like the short-rep stuff. I know I read that David Rudisha would do "Diagonals" in which he would go to a soccer field, stride from corner to corner, and jog the sidelines for 20ish minutes at a time. Mile-sets of 100 meters on/off is a great workout as well (we called them straights-and-turns in college). In college our coach would also have us do 20/40s where we run 20s at mile-pace and recover for 40. You can do these in the middle of a distance run, or do them as a workout on their own (I liked doing 2x10 mins of 20/40s with 400 jog rest in between). I think these workouts are great at introducing some harder aerobic-type stuff at the beginning of the season and does so without neglecting the athlete's speed.

dingusplus wrote:

Lol. Yes, any day now the guy that hasn't PRd in 2 years is going to run the world record. Gonna run that 1:39 for sure. Still waiting 4 years since the dingusses started proclaiming their saint is going to run that time.

Any day now , he'll also be playing WR in the NFL and anchoring the US Oly 4x4 team

Ugh that is painful. Some coaches should be sued for malpractice.

I agree with the 0.7 conversion for 400m athletes, but if you look at 800m athletes, it tends to be closer to 1.2 seconds as they are terrible out of blocks (IMO). I watched Soloman run his 45.98 at Oxy and he lost more than a second standing up out of the blocks that day!

Both Murphy and Hopple. both who have 45 high splits, yet only have 47 point open 400m . Murphy 47.97 Hopple 47.68 official bests.

Even Coe split 45.5 and his open best was 46.87 (+1.3) .

Devin Dixon is a regular 400m runner and he's split 44.1 1 FAT and his open best is 45.22

Anyway, back to the topic - I don't think DB needs to tinker too much with his program.

JRinaldi wrote:

I agree with the 0.7 conversion for 400m athletes, but if you look at 800m athletes, it tends to be closer to 1.2 seconds as they are terrible out of blocks (IMO). I watched Soloman run his 45.98 at Oxy and he lost more than a second standing up out of the blocks that day!

Both Murphy and Hopple. both who have 45 high splits, yet only have 47 point open 400m . Murphy 47.97 Hopple 47.68 official bests.

Even Coe split 45.5 and his open best was 46.87 (+1.3) .

Devin Dixon is a regular 400m runner and he's split 44.1 1 FAT and his open best is 45.22

Anyway, back to the topic - I don't think DB needs to tinker too much with his program.

When discussing an athlete's 400m speed, it is best not to even bring up an athlete's relay split unless 1st leg. Conversions are meaningless. It is like attempting to do altitude conversion for performances at 3000ft. to 4000ft. to sea level. It is best to stick to 400m out of the blocks, as stated 1st relay leg counts.