Donavan Brazier Training: 20-30MPW?

Contradiction wrote:

It has been said that Brazier only runs 20-30MPW with one aerobic run of 30 min per week. He didn't do cross country either. Does anyone know if he had a higher mileage base, because this mileage seems pretty low, and it's working very well. This type of training contradicts much of the 800 training mentioned on this site, especially from the "Sub 1:50 800m Training" thread. How does Brazier run so fast on this training? Is this type of training the best for 800m? Does anyone have any more specific info on it?

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"Although I think I read somewhere he got up to 40mpw during XC, but it is not uncommon for a true 400/800 athlete to run around 30mpw. At the next level, he will probably become an 800m specialist and bump up to 40-50mpw, but there is no need to go beyond that. Albeit, I am not a high mileage proponent, but HM has worked for many successful athletes, but it is not for everyone. In my opinion, some of the most talented H.S. 800m runners had their careers ruined by going to NCAA teams chasing XC, Indoor and Outdoor championships where they had to nearly double their H.S. mileage, run XC and the mile. Often, these 800m stars were good H.S. XC runners and milers, some coaches assume they are middle distance athletes when in actually they are long sprinters and HA zaps their speed."

Yours is the best post I've seen on here.

No one can explain training in 700 pages or less, let alone in one short

post on Let's Run.com. Some common sense has to come into play here.

The athlete has to have time to recover. If he is doing sprint work every day, 365 days per year, you can forget him ever becoming a champion.

People want to invent the wheel and think that you can go back to the 1930's and 1940's when everybody did hard interval training...AND THEY LIKED IT!

That is why I write. To correct the wrongs of the many people on Let's Run.com that are ignorant of what it takes to be a champion runner.

Steve Prefontaine: I'm a freak of nature

Bill Bowerman: Doubtful Pre, doubtful

Olympic Truth wrote:

Coming from you, someone on a message board, it doesn't matter. And your lack of intelligence when it comes to track doen't reflect well on you. My purpose is to point out the facts concerning his progression clearly show he is using PEDs.

The fact is that drugs crushed your brain.

Lets say he runs 5 days a week

Single runs - We will discount the alleged 30 min aerobic run

He must realistically run at least 800m volume a day. I can imagine there are days he does just a flat out 4 or 500 but averagely 800. More likely to be between 1-2 km volume if it is pre work on the 800.

We know his wouldn't be true because you would need some strength so there are days he would do something like 2 X 1 mile or something but anyway

So we go on the minimum.

800 X 5 = 2.5/3 miles a day. Plus 10 miles of warm up warm down..

Is it really possible someone runs anything that far south of 1:50 on what would be less than 5 miles of quality running a week.

If someone know spouts he does 20-30 quality work that's easily another 10-15 warm up warm down so it's going to be 40 mpw in sorry, I bet my house on it one mile either side is the least he does

Throwing he is likely to do the 30 mins run at 6m/m pace so 5 mile and I bet my bones he is doing this most mornings (not at that pace but just shake outs / loosener too) and the 20-30 MPW is quality

It's just not possible when you factor in other shit

State the obvious wrote:

If someone know spouts he does 20-30 quality work that's easily another 10-15 warm up warm down so it's going to be 40 mpw in sorry, I bet my house on it one mile either side is the least he does

Throwing he is likely to do the 30 mins run at 6m/m pace so 5 mile and I bet my bones he is doing this most mornings (not at that pace but just shake outs / loosener too) and the 20-30 MPW is quality

It's just not possible when you factor in other shit

People count miles differently. Take this day

2 mile warm up

6x100 strides with a jog back

4x500 with 300 m job

1 mile cool down.

Some guys will go that is

2k of running (they don't count the warm up and recovery)

Another guy will go thats

9k+ of running

It is all about what you count. It doesn't really matter.

Throw in the ability to do all sorts of misc training (i.e. maybe he does a lot of lifting,plyometrics, sled pushes,...) that sprinters tend to do and you can see why people run really fast 800ms on low mileage.

Unless you get some 24 week+ training log, you have to take what most people say about training with a grain of salt. It is way to easy to see some peaking weak (or the toughest week of the year by far) and get a mistaken impression of what someone is doing.

Who does a 2 mile warm up for 4x500m?

If we are just honest with ourselves, if Donovan Brazier says he runs 20-30 MPW then he probably is. Rudisha runs 35MPW in winter/summer and then likely cuts down for summer. He ran 1:40 off that.

Brazier is an extreme talent and can do what few 19 year olds have ever done. I would not be surprised if he does a lot less than what you all think 800 guys need.

Metric Miler wrote:

Who does a 2 mile warm up for 4x500m?

Almost any higher mileage 800/1500 guy. Plus at least that in the cooldown. 400/800guy likely not.

What is very much more unlikely is a decent 800/1500 guy doing less than 50 miles in base. Maybe Webb in High School.

YMMV wrote:

What is very much more unlikely is a decent 800/1500 guy doing less than 50 miles in base. Maybe Webb in High School.

The high majority of 800/1500 guys might not do less than "50 miles in base" (per week), but that doesn't mean that they could not have done less than 50 and still had the same results, i.e., the 50mile+ base wasn't the necessary ingredient to their success (they did it out of training "conventional wisdom" and because they could).

To prove this:

It is well documented that Webb, Spivey, Lagat, and Padilla ran outstanding *5k's* running between 40-60 mpw (some higher end, some lower end) during much of their training. If one can run an outstanding 5k on that type of mileage (5k being the distance that marathoners often can still excel at), than surely a very talented, speed-oriented, speed trained 800/1500 guy could have outstanding results at the 800/1500 on less 50 mpw base. Believe it.

And a guy like Brazier, training for 800? Not surprising at all that he could excel at 800 on 30 mpw if doing tons of quality.

What is so hard to comprehend?

People, that have natural speed and run fast 400m need different kind of training for 800m, than those, who do not have this kind of speed.

When you can run 400m in 45-46s, all you need to do to get a great 800m time is to learn how to hold and control 51-52s tempo for two laps. How is jogging 50 miles a week gonna help you with that? This can only get done with intense interval workouts with little recovery time.

As for Braziers PR progression, this is also not really complicated. As a guy with great sprinting abilities, rather than aerobic, he most likely was running his 800m races very cautiously, first lap easy and second lap full out. So it took him some time to get comfortable with the distance and be confident in running the first lap faster.

Yes it is VERY possible. I ran for a D1 school in which the 800 coach ran a very similar system to what it seems A&M has. We rarely went over 30 mpw throughout the year, maybe up to 40 in the summer for some guys. Looking at my logs I was over 50 mpw 2x throughout 4 years and UNDER 20 mpw countless times, likely 8-10 wks of each year during peak time.

My roommate won a D1 800 title, and ran professionally after. Heres a typical week in May during peak time:

M- 2 mile jog, 8x200 starting at 30 cutting down to 26, 1 min rest. 800 jog

T- 2 mile jog, 600 coming thru 400 in 52, 1 min rest, 200 in 26, 10 minutes rest, followed by 3x150, 800 jog

W- 20-30 minute jog with strides

TH- 1 mile jog, 3x150, 3x100, 3x50, 800 jog

F- Pre-meet(what you do today is personal choice, depending on what you need to do to be ready to roll) Maybe 2-3 miles total

S- Race (2-3 miles total with warm up and cool down for 800 and 4x4)

S- off

MPW- about 20

During the fall this mileage would jump to the high 30's low 40's and include hills, fartleks, and longer interval sessions(longest repeat we ever did was 1000 though).

We had about 8 guys in the 800 group between 1:46- 1:52 off of this, all of which were 46-49 on a 4x4 split.

Several ways to skin a cat, Brazier seems to have found one that works.

YMMV wrote:

Metric Miler wrote:

Who does a 2 mile warm up for 4x500m?

Almost any higher mileage 800/1500 guy. Plus at least that in the cooldown. 400/800guy likely not.

What is very much more unlikely is a decent 800/1500 guy doing less than 50 miles in base. Maybe Webb in High School.

I can't imagine someone combining that warmup with such a short session. That session is clearly supposed to be fast. Doing 2 miles before it will actually fatigue you and take a little of your 'zip' away.

And Brazier is not an 800/1500 guy. He is very fast over 400m, splitting 45 in the relay AFTER a 1:43 800m. His 4:07 mile is literally terrible for someone that can easily run under 1:45.

Metric miler wrote:

YMMV wrote:

Almost any higher mileage 800/1500 guy. Plus at least that in the cooldown. 400/800guy likely not.

What is very much more unlikely is a decent 800/1500 guy doing less than 50 miles in base. Maybe Webb in High School.

I can't imagine someone combining that warmup with such a short session. That session is clearly supposed to be fast. Doing 2 miles before it will actually fatigue you and take a little of your 'zip' away.

And Brazier is not an 800/1500 guy. He is very fast over 400m, splitting 45 in the relay AFTER a 1:43 800m. His 4:07 mile is literally terrible for someone that can easily run under 1:45.

Read the post above yours, you don't have to imagine it, it's normal. 12-13 minutes of jogging is not all that tiring, I promise.

If he ran a sub 46 it does change things a bit. But in the end he still doped. I could care less about "saving face" My facts are fact. You think they are ill-informed, which is your problem, because you have not researched the topic of PED academically and you have zero experience in high level training. I have both. A simple Google Scholar search will yield numerous studies and if you trained at all you would know that he had to use in order to progress. And where was his sub 46 and how many times did he run an open sub 46, and perhaps, he started using then which is why is dropped to a 45. It is a simple logical fact, that most track athlete know.

And there is nothing you can do to exit without embarassment, its just who you are.

a split is a spilt. I know you know that. There is no such thing as a 45.92 FAT split. You get a running start and you usually don't run an entire 400. And that equal to a 47 open, clock starts at the gun 400.

Either that or you have never run a 400 or 4x400 in competition.

Olympic Truth wrote:

a split is a spilt. I know you know that. There is no such thing as a 45.92 FAT split. You get a running start and you usually don't run an entire 400. And that equal to a 47 open, clock starts at the gun 400.

Either that or you have never run a 400 or 4x400 in competition.

Don't be ridiculous. Of course there is such thing as a FAT split, *especially* in a 4x400 where the start and finish are on the same line. It's a tape-to-tape measurement. If you knew anything about running a 4x400 (and I'm starting to suspect that you're full of shit), you'd know a split is tape-to-tape regardless of where the runner gets the baton, i.e. if you run second but get the baton 5 meters after the mid-line, you still own those first five meters. Running start, sure. Less than 400m? You own the distance regardless.

Brazier's 45.92 -->

Its not FAT, if I get the baton after the line, then what its shorter than 400. You get the baton in the passing zone. NOT TAPE TO TAPE. Because you can get th baton after the tape, most don't but it happens, ??? Do you run? Have you ran in several 4x400. The FAT is BS yes it exsit, but it doesn't count because of the running start. FAT is normally started when the gun goes off, THATS FAT In this case it starts when someone pushes the timer, hence NOT FAT its electronic.

So yes you do take a split from TAPE to TAPE most of the time, and probably all the time at big time champs, but not at most regular races. Esp the 3 and 4th leg. IT IS STILL a running start and thereby not anything like the open 400. Which is why people can run 47.9 and 45.x split. Its a good inidcator, but not a reality.

Like I said even if he SPILT!!! 45.92 not 45.92 open 400, It means nothing. so he started taking while in high school, instead of after. Perhaps to get to A&M. I know one of their 100 meter guys took in high school. His back was full in acne, he gained 20lbs and went from a 11.0 to a 10.75 in 10 months. Went to a small school then 10.2 in a year from 10.75 and then to A&M. I saw him 2-3 times a week training. Not to mention at many places around the track scene.

For the athletes its kinda un-spoken common knowledge. Some talk about it some don't. Please read some info and the subject. Go to google scholar.

Dude I competed in the Olys. Did you? Provisional qualifier. I was a good runner, worked hard. Good times, ranked top 200 once.

Olympic Truth wrote:

Its not FAT, if I get the baton after the line, then what its shorter than 400. You get the baton in the passing zone. NOT TAPE TO TAPE. Because you can get th baton after the tape, most don't but it happens, ??? Do you run? Have you ran in several 4x400. The FAT is BS yes it exsit, but it doesn't count because of the running start. FAT is normally started when the gun goes off, THATS FAT In this case it starts when someone pushes the timer, hence NOT FAT its electronic.

Perhaps you don't really understand what FAT is? Fully Automatic Timing? As the article notes, his split was recorded by Michiana Timing. MT uses a FinishLynx system for track. FinishLynx records 1000+ pictures PER SECOND and is touted to be accurate to .0001 seconds. It is as accurate as current technology allows.

Here, allow me to educate you -->

It doesn't really matter, though. The fact that you think you need to challenge his recorded split in order to support your tenuous position tells me all I really need to know.

You are a bad person. The kid has accomplished something that hasn't been done in 50 years and your first instinct is to go to an anonymous message board to shit on him. More than anything else, this speaks to the quality of YOUR character. I am not alone in this view. You know this.

Fine it FAT without starting with a gun and a running start. DO YOU RUN?? JUST because it an electronic timing system doesn't make it FAT look at the rule book.I don't agree with you definition and the link is not the rule book. Like I said its electronic, but it cannot be FAT if it is started manually during the relay. BUT Who cares? He doped. I am not a bad person because I have come to the conclusion that he uses. I don't need it to support my position, I stated that several times, it just means he doped before his 143.

The fact that you judge my character may speak to yours. I stay anonymous because of what I do for a living

I am not alone, most educated people that have run know he uses. You may just be naive and wish upon a star or have a personal interest in him, maybe you know him.

I am an analytical person, with an extensive background in research and running. And I competed at the world level.

I think that you want to believe he and others are clean, thats fine. But to attack me because I disagree with you and I have valid points is strange. THen you bring up a split, not an actual 400, and then claim its FAT, and you never answer whether you run/compete. I don't care about how fast you are, have you been out there trying to improve, and running races, learning about track and the lingo.

Here you go little boy. This actually defines it by Lynx,

http://www.finishlynx.com/about-us/what-is-fully-automatic-timing/

I am wasting my time, but perhaps it will sink in later

who educated who? LOL