Jamaican medalist tests positive in Beijing 08 retest

TrackCoach wrote:

While the truth is, Gatlin is possibly the cleanest world class sprinter.

I stop reading after this quote.

"The man sabbotaged by his massage therapist Chris Whetstine"...haha.

lolololololol wrote:

Cue sprintgeezer in 3.....2......1.......

Called it!

sprintgeezer does not disappoint, m-f'er came hard. can't wait til somebody else tests positive. what a freak, damn straight

TomSto wrote:

Again Yohan Blake did not test positive for methlyhexanamine, how many times must it be stated that if Blake and others had gone to CAS they would have won their case because methylxantine was not on the banned list.

Methlyhexanamine wasn't even on the banned list in 2008. I'll wait for official word before I castigate.

but

WADA says:

Any pharmacological substance which is not addressed by any of the subsequent sections of the List and with no current approval by any governmental regulatory health authority for human therapeutic use (e.g drugs under pre-clinical or clinical development or discontinued, designer drugs, substances approved only for veterinary use) is prohibited at all times.

i.e. "and no using stuff we don't know about yet, either."

All that FDA-unreviewed shit in your supplements can get you busted whether it's a PED or not.

So is there a clean medal winning sprinter out there right now? Has there ever been a clean medal winning sprinter? Highly unlikely, the way these men and women keep getting busted, and then the ones that are the untouchable who will most likely never get busted.

Let's keep some perspective here. Jamaica has 50 TIMES the per capita doping positives OF the USA and 10 times that of any other athletics power. Their anti-doping commission has been forcibly reconstituted twice by WADA. At least one JADCO member has gone to jail and they were exposed by their own whistleblower for not doing any testing. They conducted ONE out of competition test leading up to the 2012 Olympics. This is simply the public record, not an opinion. Personally, I believe all of Bolt's medals and world records should be vacated due to the anti-doping corruption in Jamaica which is now known to have stretched to the highest levels of their government.

BUT--

One day before Nesta Carter's positive was confirmed, the Washington Post reported that WADA knew about Russia cheating since 2010 and did nothing about it until the revelations from ARD came out last year.

WADA heard of Russian doping in 2010, didn’t investigate until media reports

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/olympics/wada-heard-of-russian-doping-in-2010-didnt-investigate-until-media-reports/2016/06/02/9ec77acc-28e7-11e6-b989-4e5479715b54_story.html

There is no mention of this on letsrun (because it applies to "distance heroes")?

The reality is this:

--In sprinting we're talking about individuals cheating.

--In distance we're talking about whole nations cheating: Russia, Kenya, Ethiopia/Jama Aden, Turkey, Morocco....and I think all the Nike clubs in Oregon belong in here (yes, I think that every pro running in Oregon and the University of Oregon sponsored by Nike is dirty).

--In the last 3 years, more Kenyans have tested positive than all the Jamaicans that have EVER tested positive (yes, all the way back to Ben Johnson)

--For every North American sprinter that's tested positive in the last few years, there are at least 100 distance runners with suspect doping profiles by the ARD documentaries.

--My impression is that 99% of the people mentioned or implied by ARD in 2015--and all those Kenyans shown shooting up--are distance runners.

The way I see it is that competitive distance runners are the most disgusting pile of trash in fitness. I'm not going to call you a sport or athletes, because you're not. YOU'RE JUST A TOTAL PILE OF TRASH THAT CAN'T DO ANYTHING EXCEPT SHOOT UP WITH DRUGS AND DESTROY THE REPUTATION OF TRACK AND FIELD FOR THE REST OF US.

Hammerin Hank wrote:

So is there a clean medal winning sprinter out there right now? Has there ever been a clean medal winning sprinter? Highly unlikely, the way these men and women keep getting busted, and then the ones that are the untouchable who will most likely never get busted.

I'll stick my neck out and say Vicault is probably the fastest clean 100m guy out there at the moment. What's his pb? 9.86? 9.88?

If he is clean, I'd be pretty pissed off with what is obviously going on around him.

I have always thought Bolt was a freak of nature and likely clean, but when so many Jamaicans have been busted, I am starting to have serious second thoughts!

It is exactly these sort of situations that put the sport in a really impossible situation. Everyone wants to believe Bolt is clean. Every true athletic fan wants to see the sport cleaned up as mush as is possible.

So, it's easy to be cynical and accuse Bolt of doping, but there is also that question of doubt. He could, despite what his countrymen have done, be clean!

What an awful predicament. How did the sport get to this point?

TrackCoach wrote:

[quote]Llemy2.0 wrote:

.

- I have heard this argument several times, but the truth is, Bolt's 10.03 was not his first attempt at the 100m, Bolt had been running the 100m since he was 12 years old. Albeit, he was better at the 2/4, but he had been running the 100 since he first stated in track. There is no doubt that Bolt is extremely talented, but someone would have to be crazy (-or Jamaican) cnot to at least be suspicious of an athlete who goes from 10.03 to 9.69 destroying the world record while celebrating the last 10 meters.

This is quite simple, if the 10"03 wasn't his first attempt, why don't you post a time or a competition results of his previous 100m ?

That would be very simple, various database have FAT times up to 10"7 for males (a time that Bolt would easily run on the bend of his 200m).

Can you just back this fact up by posting one, just one single individual result for Bolt in 100m ? You came up with so much facts with other more obscure jamaican, that it would be easy, wouldn't it ?

Orville_D wrote:

This stimulant was not on the ban list in 2008, but must have been similar in chemical structure to something which was on the list. Given the high level of media scrutiny placed on Jamaica in the lead up to the Olympics, most likely he was have declared all his supplements.

But it is puzzling why this common stimulant was not picked up in previous tests. Makes me wonder if the sample he gave was tested in 2008.

The sad thing is, most people just like to jump on the Jamaican bang-wagon, and to compare him, or any athlete who failed test to this stimulant to Justin Gatlin, or Tyson Gay, is rather shameful.

I do know that UKAD gave two British guys who failed test for STEROID 3 & 4 months, so lets see if stimulants are now seen as more performance enhancing than Steroid.

What? Give proof or name names.

I wouldn't get caught up in that. The plan fact is that a few top athletics counties had no OOC program for way too long. Jamaica has more great athletes than one would predict. It's hard to say they are all dopers but it is highly likely that each country has a problem.I hope Bolt is clean but the number of super fast Jamaicans, particularly Blake's 200, makes me really cautious about it.

Trackcoach already had his "facts" dismantled in a previous discussion last year :

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&id=6717680&thread=6717380#6717680

coach d wrote:

The way I see it is that competitive distance runners are the most disgusting pile of trash in fitness. I'm not going to call you a sport or athletes, because you're not. YOU'RE JUST A TOTAL PILE OF TRASH THAT CAN'T DO ANYTHING EXCEPT SHOOT UP WITH DRUGS AND DESTROY THE REPUTATION OF TRACK AND FIELD FOR THE REST OF US.

You sound like a rational person.

Sprintgeezer wrote:

03 Jun 2016

Carter's A and B samples from 2008 test positive.

All you a-holes, like Ilemux, James Lee, etc. can absolutely suck on it.

You have NOTHING. Your stupidity is now on display for all to see.

And you were so sure, so full of yourselves. You're just a bunch of fanboy trash.

I can out-sprint you, out-think you, and out-last you.

And no, I NEVER forget, especially all of your a-hole accusations that I was a racist. You guys are lucky I don't know you personally.

BINGO! BINGO! BINGO! POW! POW! POW! KO!!!

I agree 100% and I would also like to add a few names to your list (but that will not be possible at this time).

Let's also not forget 2012:

The entire forum is sorry Sprintgeezer that the forum was not able to award you a medal for being CORRECT MANY YEARS AGO. Please accept your award now, even though it is many years too late.

Sprintgeezer has been proven correct over and over and over again.

pop_pop!_v2.2.1 wrote:

Salvatore Stitchmo wrote:

Bolt?! Hahah bro. Let's see - who is the least relevant athlete on that list - the one that can be named with the best "see we are cleaning up the sport" angle. Bolt is the Lance Armstrong of track and field - circa 2002-2003 - untouchable.

Ding! Ding! Ding!

The top of the list would be a nearly retired/no-podium chance in 2016 athlete that isn't Bolt.

Carter??!?!?! I'm shocked!!!! It's like a sports federation has never done this before, ever.

If only my prognostication skills worked outside the IOC.

The terrible irony here is the casual viewer will treat the positive as if the entire podium were clean except for that one bad athlete. Right Mr. Canova? He was weak-minded and his teammates weren't.

please forgive if already posted, and I haven't fact checked it myself, but:

If Nesta Carter is confirmed, every man apart from Bolt who has ever run under 9.79sec is a doper.

-Ben Rumsby

what a ^&*#ed up sport.

agip wrote:

please forgive if already posted, and I haven't fact checked it myself, but:

If Nesta Carter is confirmed, every man apart from Bolt who has ever run under 9.79sec is a doper.

-Ben Rumsby

what a ^&*#ed up sport.

Except Bolt? I got some bad news for you....

The guy is never testing positive, but that's different than not doping.

TrackCoach, I don't want to discuss the "supposed" doping of some Jamaican sprinter. Simply, I say that, before speaking about FACTS, you, like everybody else, need to know what are you speaking about.

The first competition of Usain Bolt UNDER 10.50 in 100m was on 8 July 2007 in Rethimno (Greece), when he ran 10"03.

Before that competition, Bolt had already 6 years of competitions on 200 and 400m, RUNNING 20 TIMES UNDER 20"30 and 7 TIMES UNDER 20".

Here there is his progression :

2001 : 200m in 21"73 (in his first race on 7th April at the age of 14y 7months, in Kingston, he ran 22"04 ). One week later (14th April) he ran his first 400m in 48"28. In 2001 Bolt ran 5 competition of 200m and 1 in 400m.

2002 : Usain finished the season with 20"58 (Kingston, 18.07) at the age of 15 years and 10 months. He ran 9 competition of 200m, and 4 competitions of 400m, with a best performance of 47"12 at 15 years 10 months of age.

2003 : Usain won the World Youth Championships with the WY record in Bridgetown (20.07 at the age of 16 years 10 months) in 20"13, showing already his ability to peak for the most important Championships. He ran 16 competitions of 200m, and 6 competition of 400m, with a PB of 45"35 at the beginning of the season (5.04). I was in Bridgetown for the World Youth Championships, and remember that I told to the coaches who were not there that I had the opportunity to see the "Future WR holder of 200m and 400m".

2004 : Usain reduced the number of competition, increasing his training a little bit. He ran only 4 competitions of 200m, because had some physical problem, However, was able running for the first time under 20" (19"93, World Junior Record, in Hamilton, on 11.04).

2005 : 14 competitions of 200m for Usain, still under 20" (19"99 in London on 22.07), without improving.

2006 : 12 competitions of 200m, with a new PB of 19"88 in Lausanne on 10.07.

2007 : Change of the Coach, joining Glenn Mills and starting his "real" training, since before that period his training was very simple and easy.

After 3 years without working on his endurance, Usain started to increase the volume of training and the length of some test, running 3 times 400m at the beginning of his season : 45"92 (10.02), 45"62 (1.05) and 45"28 (PB) on 5.05. With more training, Usain improved his PB in 200m running in 19"75 in Kingston (4.06).

TILL THAT PERIOD, HE NEVER RAN ONE COMPETITION OF 100m (also at local level). This means that, when he ran his first 100m, his experience was 68 competitions of 200m, 14 of 400m and 0 of 100m.

2008 : Usain started with 10"03 again very early in the season (Spanish Town on 8th March), and, working more on his speed for running not only faster, but also technically better, the first 50m of his 200m, went to test his new situation with his real first important competition in 100m (Kingston, 3rd May), when he ran 9"76.

I don't see any reason for being suspicious about the best talent ever, who DIDN'T JUMP FROM 10"03 TO 9"76, SIMPLY STARTED TO RUN 100m AT THE SAME LEVEL OF HIS 200m (already years before).

Not Always numbers can give informations about the career of the athletes, and the most part of poster in Letsrun don't know anything about the personal history of every athlete.

One of the reasons because I try to explain everytime that the speaking of doping without knowing the reality is an exercise made by your belly, not your brain. Everybody can have his own opinion (normally wrong...), but nobody can accept that, for justifying an opinion (normally wrong...), he has to falsify the truth.

I have been involved in track and field for decades and I have never met a sprinter who did not run the 100m at least in their youth. For the record, the first time Bolt ran at Champs in 2000 or 2001, he ran the 100m and 200m.

I can't give a lengthy rebuttable because I am about to head out for my evening run, which can best described these days as a jog. First, I have been involved in track and field for decades and I have never met a sprinter who did not run the 100m at least in their youth. For the record, Bolt has run quit a few 100 meter dashes in his youth. He said himself that he started out as 100/200 sprinter and hated the 400. In fact, the first time Bolt ran at Champs (Jamaican H.S. Championships) in 2000 or 2001, he ran the 100m and 200m.

Second, I have absolutely no direct knowledge of any Jamaican athlete doping. What I talk about is athletes and nation's who are suspicious. I have done the same thing with American and European athletes as well. And, I don't just call into question when an athlete has a great performance, I do so when the performances for a number of reasons are suspicious. If you look through my previous posts over the years, you will see at times I have defended Bolt, when others have questioned his cleanliness. I watched him in person at the 2002 Penn Relays when I think he was only 16 years old at the time and then the following year at the World Jr Champs in Kingston Ja. I knew he was special, albeit, I could never have predicted Bolt or anyone was capable running a 9.58 100m. I go back and forth in my 'opinion' as to Bolt's cleanliness. I have lots data collected over the years, a lot of which does not exist on the internet and everything I know says, something happened in Jamaica from September of 2007 to May 2008. With out going into too many details, most of their pro athletes pretty much disappeared, no indoor performances and only spring performances where there was drug testing. Except for a couple of U.S. based Jamaicans, they basically disappeared for half a year. When Jamaican athletes started popping up in meets, they seemed transformed, not one, two or three, but lots of them. This was reminiscent of what we saw with the GDR in the mid-80s and China in the mid-90s.

I have spent a considerable amount of time in Jamaica, I have competed there as an athlete, I have recruited athletes from there and it is one of my favorite places. Jamaica is a poor country, but they take a lot of pride in track & field and are very good without doping. I know first hand what poverty can do to your judgement, especially when you are thinking how money can help your entire family. I watched in disappointment when several Jamaican athletes gave up there citizenship, their religion, culture to represent Bahrain for money. I emphasize 'gave up their citizenship'. When I see that, I realize what I think of as sport to some is about living and will do whatever is necessary to succeed.

Hammerin Hank wrote:

Has there ever been a clean medal winning sprinter?

All four men on the soon to be silver medal 4x100 men's team from Beijing.