For all of you who definitely think Usain Bolt is on drugs, this is for you (amazing video)

There are a lot of good questions on this thread, but the talk of Radcliffe is derailing the conversation. Throwing around "Healing Hans!" and ADuck's "IGF-1 LR3! IGF-LR3!" make the arguments against suspicious athletes seem trivial and kooky. It devalues the conversation, and makes it look like we're all crackpots.

Metric Miler wrote:

rjm33 does this a lot.

Regarding that Herredia interview a few posts up, the Der Spiegel interview in its original German here:

English Translation here :http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=577034

Karma Police wrote:

Clerk wrote:

I see an athlete who started their improvement curve early, and got their peak years around 18-22. I see one who then got frustrated that he wasn't living up to the hype and expectation to keep progressing, and with some insane intervention, arrived on the world scene in a wholly new way.

Another explanation is that from 2004-2007 he was training more for 200-400, then from 2007-2008 focused more on 100-200 and the results improved.

For those who say Bolt is doping - with what?

Sorry it took long to reply. This read is a mess.

The 200m is the only event he ran every year throughout his career. It is the easiest way to track his progress. Even when he ran the 400m, it is clear he was trained as a 200 guy, as opposed to a 400m guy who ran the 200 sometimes. And even in that case, Lashawn Merrit, for example, focusing on the 100/200 instead of the 200/400 does not drop your 200m time by half a second. Imagine if Merritt started running a few 100ms, then dropped a 9.6x, and 19.3x. I use that word "imagine" because there is no way it happens. There is no precedent for that kind of transformation.

I don't know what Bolt is on. But given what we know about the highly sophisticated programs, as discussed in the BALCO revelations, US-Postal Reasoned Decisions, Herredia's interview linked above, it is not a single substance. It is not even a simple combination of substances set to maximize each other. It would be a combination of designer drugs: drugs designed to fit the natural profile, with masking agents designed to interact with his natural levels and the designed drugs' unique profiles. I encourage you to read the whole Spiegel interview linked above.

Lance Footweak wrote:

Fentrekker wrote:

I don't think this is a case in point at all. Lance was nowhere near as good in biking at age 17 as Bolt was at sprinting, at age 17.

He was coached at the time by the Team USA Triathlon guy who has a doping past dating back to the early 80's. That's evidence enough for me...

You misunderstand me. My point is that Bolt's natural talent is prodigious, regardless of alleged drug use. By comparison, I believe Armstrong's natural talent to be less prodigious within his event. I have no doubt that Armstrong was cheating from an early age. As for Bolt and drugs, I don't pretend to know. I suspect he is clean, but like all of us posting here, I do *not* know. I certainly don't see the value in claiming knowledge that one cannot have unless they are in the athlete's inner circle, or after being caught, as Armstrong has.

Clerk wrote:

I don't know what Bolt is on.

But you know he must be on something, right? After all drugs make you faster right?

Everyone knows that don't they?

in the no wrote:

Clerk wrote:

I don't know what Bolt is on.

But you know he must be on something, right? After all drugs make you faster right?

Everyone knows that don't they?

You are a troll. I clearly share my thoughts in the following paragraph.

casual obsever wrote:

Five years ago, many letsrunners called it a conspiracy theory that the IAAF accepts bribes of dopers.

Turns out, it was bribed. Repeatedly.

t.

Please let me know about the bribes. The lasts time I checked they were bribed but it didn't work. The IAAF handed back the bribes. So they tried to be bought off but ultimately failed in that effort.

Let's see who has been bustedin recent years. All of Russia, Tyson Gay, Justin Gatlin, etc. Big, big names are gong down.

So now we have people arguing two different things. At first, they were sayign he's doped when he ran 19.9 at age 17. Now you say, no he was clean and then got frustrated and that's why he "improved by an unprecedented half-a-second".

Improving by half a second happens does happenI saw a guy at the Ivy League championships run 21.53 in the prelims - barely making the final - and then run 20.96 in the final. He had a 21.22 pb from a few years before.

You act like Bolt sucked for 10 years. Here is his progression at 200. He basically improved every year for 7 straight years (ignoring 2005).

2001 21.73

2003  20.13 WJR WYR WYB16 

2004  19.93 WJR 

2005  19.99  

2006  19.88  

2007  19.75  AR

2008  19.30  WR

2009  19.19 WR 

2010  19.56  

2011  19.40  

2012  19.32  

2013  19.66  

2015  19.55  

rojo wrote:

Now you say, no he was clean and then got frustrated and that's why he "improved by an unprecedented half-a-second".

 

I never said that he was clean. Please clarify where you think I made that point so I can make sure I'm not misunderstood.

I know his progression. My first response in this thread was a discussion of his progression.

That progression is plausible until 2008. Coupled with this sudden (and very implausible)100m "discovery of talent" at that same time, it is a massive red flag.Clerk has some excellent comments on access to resources, etc. upthread.

rojo wrote:

casual obsever wrote:

Five years ago, many letsrunners called it a conspiracy theory that the IAAF accepts bribes of dopers.

Turns out, it was bribed. Repeatedly.

t.

Please let me know about the bribes. The lasts time I checked they were bribed but it didn't work. The IAAF handed back the bribes. So they tried to be bought off but ultimately failed in that effort.

Let's see who has been bustedin recent years. All of Russia, Tyson Gay, Justin Gatlin, etc. Big, big names are gong down.

I'm not sure what you mean.

The IAAF is not an individual, and can't physically accept bribes. But key figures in the IAAF accepted bribes. Lamine Diack took 1,000,000 from the Russians,

His son extorted sanctioned athletes:

Anti-doping cheif took 200,000 in bribes

Are you referring to Papa Diack's extortion of Asli Cakir Alptekin ? Yes, she did not pay up and was banned. But we don't know the extent of successful coverups; it is part of the ongoing investigation, and it is silly to expect that it will uncover and spell out every instance of bribery.

Clerk wrote:

If you look at my post, the concern is less that Bolt visited Hans Muller-Wolfhart, but the fact that he visited any world-famous doctor at the age of 16.

Have to agree with that one. You tend to fly teenagers half way around the world to see a doctor only when they are terminally ill.

I won't dwell here on why Hans is the only person on the planet who can do what he does, why athletes don't ask what he is putting into them, and why he hasn't cashed his unique ability/concoctions into the Pharma companies to make himself a billionaire.

What I will ask is the following:

1) With dirty sprinters destroying the reputation of the 100m and by association his own reputation, why is Usain Bolt happy to train and socialise with doper Blake and doper Powell? And why is it that when Tyson Gay tested positive, Bolt wanted him banned him for life (good reaction!) ... but when Powell tested positive, Bolt instead texted him words of encouragement, and passively told the press: "In life things happen, people make mistakes, mishaps happen." (not so good reaction!)

2) Is Angel Hernandez/Heredia really Bolt's strength and fitness coach? There were rumours circulating a while ago. I'd like to know either way as it would definitely influence my view on Bolt.

Those rumors were based on a very shaky foundation. This is from memory, I may have it mistaken.

Manny Pacquiao was set to fight Juan Manuel Marquez. In the lead up to the fight, Pacquiao's camp said something about Marquez bringing in a guy from Bolt's strength program. That guy turned out to be Heredia. Pacquiao's camp later claimed to have never talked about Bolt or his coaches.

Victor Conte also made tweets about Bolt and Heredia working together.

That's the basis as far as I remember. Neither claims/admits to having worked with each other.

It would fit, but there is no evidence for it.

This is what I wrote in an old post:

To reiterate: it's a dead-end rumor.

Who are the caught dopers that Healing Hans has worked with?

WADA does not appear to have a problem with Hans. Olivier Rabin WADA science director vouches for him:

------

Because he's working with so many world-class athletes, the doctor routinely communicates with WADA about his treatment methods, including his use of Actovegin. Rabin vouches for Muller-Wohlfahrt's operating a clean practice, but he isn't ready to speak to the purported healing qualities of Actovegin.

"There are many techniques being used all over the world by different physicians who strongly believe that they work," Rabin says. "I am not saying Actovegin doesn't work, but looking at its composition there are no growth factors, there is no protein and only good nutrients in there. I tend to be skeptical personally on the direct impact. And I haven't seen any solid publication that indicates Actovegin would work for muscle injury, for example.

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/7324261/germany-dr-hans-wilhelm-muller-wohlfahrta-great-healer-quack-hyperactive-syringe

You folks are reading tea leaves in this entire debate. You have NO IDEA about what goes on with Bolt, if he is clean or not. You have nothing like the information required to know. Victor Conte -- why would you believe *anything* that comes out of his mouth. By all accounts the FBI found him to be very unreliable even after he "crossed over" to "their side". He got involved in cheating because he was a nobody who wanted to be a somebody. Similarly, he now will say anything for publicity. Could he be right? Sure. He could also be wrong. He is a pathological liar. Bolt is or is not cheating, and we will probably never know.

Rojo says:

I don't get what you are saying. You seem to be contradicting yourself.

You point out that Paula Radcliffe went to the same doctor as Usain Bolt, starting at age 20. Then you point out that she was such a talent she was beating Wang Junxia at age 18 before she'd ever even seen the doctor.

So basicalliy you are saying what I was saying about Bolt - child prodigy!!!

You basically beat yourself with your own argument by my reading of it.

That is because your reading of it is wrong again…just like your spelling (basicalliy).

Let me SPELL it out for you. Oh boy!!!

I think that the reason that Paula Radcliffe beat Wang Junxia by 5 seconds to win the 1992 World Junior Cross-Country Championships was because Paula Radcliffe was doping in 1992 and Wang Junxia was also doping in 1992; as well as other runners from other countries in the race (e.g. Romania) that were also doping in 1992. EPO was available in 1992, with no test for detection of EPO until the year 2000. Autologous blood transfusions would also not be able to be detected.

One year later, Wang Junxia ran a 29:31 10k world record and 8:06 3k world record which still stand today. Many people think that Wang Junxia and Paula Radcliffe were doping cheaters that never got caught.

Paula had not started her 17 year relationship with Healing Hans yet in 1992. I do not know when she started her relationship with Gerard Hartmann. I do not know if Paula had other doctors or physical therapists in her career.

I do not know if she ever saw Dr. Leonid Shvetsov of Russia who lived in Albuquerque, N.M. in 2003... when Paula took a flight across the Atlantic Ocean so she could do her buildup for her world record 2:15 marathon in Albuquerque N.M… which of course must be the best place to do altitude training on the entire planet for Paula Radcliffe to select... from all possible high altitude training locations on the planet.

Paula refuses to release any blood test results from around the 2003 world record even though she said she would release them.

Paula also had a blood test result later in 2003 that showed a 21.88% or 30% increase in hemoglobin value in 2 days, which can be estimated to be the equivalent of the hematocrit reading going from about 37% to about 47% in 2 days.

Paula Radcliffe also had 2 other "suspicious" blood test results from 2005 and 2012 that were leaked. Paula never intended for anyone to ever see the 3 "suspicious" blood test results. Nobody will see any more blood test results for Paula Radcliffe.

The most plausible explanation for that rapid and large change in hemoglobin value in 2 days in 2003 is an autologous blood transfusion by Paula Radcliffe. Blood transfusions were banned in 1985 by the IOC.

On the old Purdy tables, Wang Junxia's 8:06 3k is equivalent to a 14:03 5k and a 29:25 10k.

Paula Radcliffe's 2:15:25 WR marathon is equivalent to a 13:53 5k and a 29:05 10k.

So I guess Paula just had a really good day in April, 2003.

Does that help to make things more clear for you rojo?

Can you understand what I am saying or do you still not "get it"?

You sure are a real "expert" on blood tests, doping, transfusions, EPO, malaria in Kenyan runners, spelling, and reading comprehension.

Hi Sellerdore:

Only 3-4% of "Junior" athletes (U-23) meet success at the "Senior" (23 and up) level.

Typically what happens is that athletes at that age just matured faster physically (puberty) or mentally (able to absorb and apply technique appropriately). Once these two "advantages" (diminish over time) they become like everyone else unless they consciously and consistently made an effort not to just rely on "size/skill" advantage.

Runfatsrunfar

Sorry, I forgot to include this from Wiki.

Is this evidence for Paula as a child prodigy?:

Despite suffering from asthma Radcliffe took up running at the age of seven.[6] In 1992 Radcliffe discovered that she suffers from anaemia.

Her first race at a national level came as a 12-year-old in 1986, when she placed 299th in the English Schools Cross Country Championships.

In July 1988 Jo Pavey won the English Schools 1500 m title in a British record (under 15). Running for Devon, she finished eight places and 13 seconds ahead of Paula Radcliffe, running for Bedfordshire.[3] Pavey then won the AAAs national U15 800 m and 1500 m titles in 1988 and the AAAs national U17 800 & 1500 m titles in 1990.

Since the 1999 European Cup, Radcliffe wears a red ribbon when competing to show her support for blood testing as a method of catching drugs cheats.[108][111]

In 2015, in the wake of revelations of widespread doping in athletics,[116] Radcliffe said that, unlike some other prominent British athletes, she would not be releasing her blood-test history, and discouraged other athletes from doing so.[117] She was later indirectly identified as a suspected doper by MP Jesse Norman during a parliamentary inquiry into blood doping.[118][119] In response, Radcliffe issued a statement in which she "categorically denied" cheating in any form and said she has "nothing to hide".[120] Shortly afterwards, her three suspect test results were leaked, though Radcliffe still refused to release her complete blood-test history.[121]

Oh well.

Ben Johnson, by his own admission, started using with steroids when he was 15. Whose to say Bolt didn't also start from a young age?