Official 2016 Shanghai DL Live Discussion Thread

Currently, there is no out of competition testing in Ethiopia; currently, there is no effective testing in Kenya. I have no idea whatsoever whether anyone who competed in Shanghai is crooked. I'm certain the tests can be beat. But if there's no real testing, the likelihood of cheating only increases.

Nonsense. The reason is that non-African runners suck really bad these days. How many Spanish runners run 3,28 these days? How many Brits runs 3,29 or 1,41? The Finns struggle to break 30 in the 10k.

Jebet looks like the klutziest runner ever that could win a steeple medal. She lost a meter at every barrier and she couldn't even negotiate the rail by herself at the end (obviously dead with fatigue, but...)

well,. wrote:

Coach.. wrote:

Where is the new Komen Geb Tergat Bekele

They all seemed to appear before the biological passport

Just like all really fast marathoners...oh, wait...

They can't all be doing marathons

All the track distance talent suddenly appeared during the EPO era and disappeared just as quickly

Every Kenyan record from 1500-10000 is at least 15 years old

I re-watched the video of that 800 and it was clearly not a legal start, nor did it affect everyone the same. Rudisha was caught off guard, the guy in lane 8 was bewildered and didn't know whether to run

and the guy in lane 9 was facing the wrong direction and not on his mark. I'm not gonna dig up the starting rules but I'm sure the pistol can't be fired until everyone is on their mark. If someone had challenged the result I bet it would have been upheld.

When you say "on your mark," you wait for them all to get on their mark, and they have to be motionless too. A good starter is nitpicky about this.

I agree with you. Timing Rudisha from the point when he starts really running to the finish I get him at 1:42.6.

Kipyegon has a lot of speed in her. She looked really sharp in this race. She can definitely go faster. Whether she will be in the field for either of Genzebe's double WR attempts in June will be interesting to see. I think Faith has definitely moved past Hassan into the solid #2 miler in the world.

Bad Wigins wrote:

I re-watched the video of that 800 and it was clearly not a legal start, nor did it affect everyone the same. Rudisha was caught off guard, the guy in lane 8 was bewildered and didn't know whether to run

and the guy in lane 9 was facing the wrong direction and not on his mark. I'm not gonna dig up the starting rules but I'm sure the pistol can't be fired until everyone is on their mark. If someone had challenged the result I bet it would have been upheld.

When you say "on your mark," you wait for them all to get on their mark, and they have to be motionless too. A good starter is nitpicky about this.

Rudisha was the bewildered runner in Lane 8.

Runners affected the most by this in descending order were:

Lane 9: Bram Som the pacer. He was facing the wrong way and was not actually in his designated start area at all. Which is actually sensible given that the official was standing on the track immediately in front of him. He didn't start until the rest of the field had 30 - 40 meters on him.

Lane 8: Rudisha. He was standing up straight and not on his mark when the gun fired, threw his hands up in the air in confusion, and took about 2-3 seconds to actually start running.

Lane 7: Job Kinyor. He was standing up straight and not on his mark, just like Rudisha, and more or less had the same issue. When he started, he floundered for a bit, looking like he had no idea what was happening.

Lane 3: Antoine Gakeme. It looked like he was actually on the mark at the start, but had his hands on his knees. His start was delayed enough that Alfred Kipketer, who started from an upright position, was ahead of him immediately after the gun went off.

Lane 3: Alfred Kipketer. He was standing upright, but appeared to have the best start among the unprepared runners.

I have no idea how the race was started given that a race official was standing and waving a flag between Lane 8 and Lane 9.

Coach.. wrote:

They can't all be doing marathons

All the track distance talent suddenly appeared during the EPO era and disappeared just as quickly

Every Kenyan record from 1500-10000 is at least 15 years old

Why cant they all be doing marathons?

No, they did not disappear just as quickly. Several of them kept running fast since the EPO era and some of them moved to the roads and marathon.

The record holder is Lagat. Kiprop has succeeded him (not yet timewise).There are just as many if not more fast (sub 3:30) 1500m Kenyans now as there have ever been.

obviously not everyone heard the command if it was given at all. But the starter should be decertified. You can't fire the gun if someone's facing backwards!

learn to watch

this was no "tactical run" from King but huge flat-out effort from ~ 3.5s in with near suicidal sprint from way behind to lead at 200m !!!

at start, there is already 1.1s on clock before he starts running

there is at least 0.2s error on clock, so he didn't actually start running until 1.3s

therefore his actual running time was 1'46.24 - 1.3 =

1'44.9

then factor in :

1) didn't start running properly until ~ 3.5s in where he looks to have gone ~ 10m+ whereas the field wouda expected to have gone further, at ~ 51s/400 speed for those 3.5s = [ ( 400/51 ) * 3.5 ] - 10+ = 17m

2) suicidal sprint to get to 200 in lead with 25.1 showing on clock

correcting clock error & considering he didn't start running hard until ~ 3.5s in, the effort he put in that initial 200 was probably

23-flat/low !!!

3) easing off at end when beat cost coupla tenths

1) is in effect running a 17m handicap race

-> 1'44.9 * ( 800/817 ) ->1'42.7

2) is worth easily 0.5s, more nearer 1s from ridiculous sprint ->

~ 1'42-low

3) ->

~ 1'42-flat

he is probably in 1'42-flat shape at present

as for "not having gear change in tactical race", that is nonsnse as he won gold last year in a 1'45.8 with a

12.2 !!!

that is fastest ever finish in a major 1'45+ race !!!

Bad Wigins wrote:The about-as-good-as-Hassan-but-not-nearly-as-good-as-Dibaba class

no chance hassan

she has 3'56.0pb in much faster paced run ( the 3'50wr race ) & not much to come off that

faith had rubbish pace 62+/2'08+ then led long way out with drivel 3'13.3 ( 4'01+ pace ??? ) & massive kick of 43.5 !!!

fast, even-pace from gun-to bell & she probably wouda gone 3'54+

there is huge difference between faith & hassan

the 2 best 1500 runners are currently genze & ayana

( if she bothered with one i'd expect her to go 3'52+ at worst )

as i don't exect both to double, then faith is solid lock for silver right now

learn to watch wrote:

suicidal sprint to get to 200 in lead with 25.1 showing on clock

correcting clock error & considering he didn't start running hard until ~ 3.5s in, the effort he put in that initial 200 was probably

23-flat/low !!!

i have been ungenerous to big man

he reaches 200 in 25.1

he doesn't start running until 1.1s

->

24.0

for that 200

however, he doesn't run it hard until ~ 3.5s in which i estimated gave up ~ 17m to field on top of starting after 1+s in

this is in effect a 17m handicap race over 200

-> his "effort" in that 200 was more of

~ 24.0 * ( 200/217 ) =

~ 22.1 !!!

this was utter suicide

to hold on for for an intrinsic ~ 1'42-low effort off a intrinsic effort of ~22-flat opening suicidal sprint indicates much more 1'41+ shape in an ideal 2s +ve split race

i reckon he is very close to his '12 shape right now...

Why do you still think even-paced is the best way to run middle distance? It's a terrible way. You should start fast on anerobic energy, cruise at the edge of acid tolerance, then push beyond on the kick. 62-65-65 is a risky but intelligent start to a low-stakes time trial. 43.5 converts to a 60.2 - close enough to the first lap to be near perfect. She wouldn't have done much better with different splits.

Hassan vs Genzebe was in no man's land, trying to go with her, then fading. Whatever her pacing, it was clear that she was spent well before she finished.

Only point in Faith's favor is that Sifan's 3:56.low was Monaco-assisted, but she's also got a 3:57 flat elsewhere, and their slower times are similar too. Head to head my money's on Sifan to outkick Faith most of the time.

I thought Gatlin's coach was Nehemiah.

The front page says it's Mitchell.

Was there a coaching change?

I agree with almost everything you said, but I don't think Ayana has that kind of speed. I don't think she can go down that far. I think Kipyegon would smoke her. Remember what Genzebe did to her in Paris 5K? Genzebe ran a 60 final lap and left Ayana in quicksand.

As for Faith, I don't understand how anyone thinks Hassan is better. Faith kicked her down her in Beijing and looks tons faster now. I like Sifani and expect her to be faster too, but she looked about the same indoor. Neither faster or slower.

no way is 62/65/65/65 the most efficient way to run it

i can see a case for a 1s faster opening lap but nothing more, or by your method we shoud see 27-flat 10ks open with :~ 60s followed by 24 laps of 65s !!!???

as for hassan in monaco, she was paced thru in ~ 2'05 nicely drafting behind genze

that is 3'54+ pace so she had near ideal pace to run it but faded to 3'56-flat

it wasn't that much of fade either, maybe ~ 1.5s in 700m

there are no excuses

she simply wasn't capable of 3'54+, whereas genze upped ~ 3'54-flat pace to 3'50-flat !!!

faith went thru in a crawl of 2'08+ because of rubbish pacer

i have no doubt that a 43.5 finish in a 3'56+ off rubbish pacing to 1200 is worth 3'54+ at even pace

as for monaco track, that is nonsense

lashawn ran 44.30 modern track record there & 43.9 twice elsewhere in same year !!!

how is a track utter rubbish for 400 but as you claim, superfast for 1500 ???

did they they change the surface for lashawn's track to a "slow" one & change it back to a "fast" one for 1500s ???

you forget that ayana finished WC 5k with a 8'19 !!!

if just a 3k that day, she shouda been looking t well below < 8'15 & the weather was brutal in peking

any gal who can run < < 8'15 in temperate weather shoud be hugely below 3'55 & i reckon 3'52+

remember, the chinese gals in '93 only scratched the surface of their 1500 ability in that tactical 1500

it had wild opener of 57+ !!! & they still held on for 3'50 & 3'51

even-paced that day & record wouda been ~ 3'47/3'48 with wang probably 3'49+

this shoud put a 3'52+ into perspective

ayana in paris clearly not in best shape as in her quick 5k early in season & WC

in a slow 1500 left for kickers, i have no doubt faith woud outkick her as she is more 1500/800 than ayana & i think she coud probably go 1'58/1'59, perhaps even possibility of 1'57s but definitely better basic 400 speed for a sprint

no chance hassan wrote:

how is a track utter rubbish for 400 but as you claim, superfast for 1500 ???

did they they change the surface for lashawn's track to a "slow" one & change it back to a "fast" one for 1500s ???

I'm sure I've explained this before. Bouncy is good for MD and distance, but bad for sprints. To sprint fast you need high cadence - as many footstrikes as possible to get maximum forward acceleration. If you bounce higher, you take longer to land. Sprints are faster on a harder surface.

Not all MD do well on bouncy tracks either. It favors the long loping stride that doesn't depend on cadence. Like Kiprop. Dibaba. Farah. Daniel Komen would have killed it at Monaco. 7:15.