Long Run for 800m.

formerD1 wrote:

I ran 1:50 for the 800m. My longest run during base phase was 6 miles.

Radishes only runs 35mpw in base phase.

Who are these jackhoes suggesting a 12 mile long run? Are you literally stupid?

Peter Snell of New Zealand was Gold Medalist in the 800 in 1960 and then won the 800 and 1500 in 1964.

He claimed to run at least one 22 miler per week. Some weeks he did two of them! Lydiard felt that this actually built leg speed because at the end of such a run you have depleted all three energy systems to the maximum.

I'm not claiming this is best for everyone but certainly 14 miles is not too much early in the year.

Big Jim Slade wrote:

Long, slow running kills speed.

Tell that to Peter Snell. If you do the weekly sprints a weekly long run and/or frequent slow runs won´t kill your speed. Of course if you´re a sprinter then it´s different. I needed a lot of miles and usually did 2 hour long runs, or even more when training for 800, but it depends. A weekly long run is very good especially if your overall mileage is low.

Bump for a very interesting bread.

What works for one athlete doesn’t work for another. The paradox of the average letsrun poster is they think 90 mpw is needed to be a real “DISTANCE” runner but they’re infatuated with 100m and 200m times . A good coach will tailor the training to the athlete. Just recently there have articles posted about 800m runners who made national breakthroughs because they added some more distance/aerobic work or they shifted to more short intervals and drastically reduced the mileage. In international track and field the 800 guys are truly specialists who are built on speed. A few years ago Brandon Johnson burst on the scene as a converted 400IH runner. Then there was talk about how he was increasing his mileage and long run. He regressed big time.

My first year in college I tried to be an 8/15 runner with a coach who made the OT marathon. He followed a lot of the old School distance training theory espused on letsrun. In mid season I crushed my high school 1600m PR but wasn’t within 3 seconds of my 800 PR. The next season I trained more with the sprint team as a 600/800 and 4x4 member. My “longest” run was about 30-40 mins. In one season I knocked almost 4 seconds from the 800 at the expense of my 1500m but was totally Ok with it.

An interesting thread.

Peter Snell in his book 'No Buggles No Drums' stated he did his 22 miler in 2:23 just 5 days before running 1:44.3 on a grass track. How fast is that? No Australian has run faster. Australia's best 800m runner Luke Matthews was recently doing a session of 8x1k on 4 minutes on grass averaging 2:50-2:55.

Every athlete is different. The 800m is still 60%aerobic and there is nothing worse than getting an athlete to the 600m mark and they can't finish it off due to not having a strong aerobic system.

Recently had a 21 year old come to me 7 months ago. His first 800m was 2:16 in October.

He worked up to running 12k for his long run and had plenty of tempo's, long alternations, and short quick stuff over hills and on the track. He trained 3-4 days per week. Every 3-4 weeks he would race in our club races. He ran about 20-25k a week (12-15 miles). He finished the season with 49.5 400m best (only 2nd ever 400) and 1:57.2 800m PB.

Now with a background this winter of volume what can he run in the future? That is the fun of the journey. How long should an 800m runner's long run be? I would guess somewhere between 6-22 miles and in that is the Art of coaching will be interesting.

formerD1 wrote:

Get out of the mindset that 13 mile long runs are appropriate for anyone but a very tiny minority of 800m runners.

Very few 800m coaches are going to let their 800m runners go out for a slow 13 mile run.

At Stanford that would get you laughed off the team. Same goes for Warhurst at Michigan. Name any renowned coaches or programs that would permit this.

Nick Symmonds did them, but he's a former D3 runner.

coahc wrote:

An interesting thread.

Peter Snell in his book 'No Buggles No Drums' stated he did his 22 miler in 2:23 just 5 days before running 1:44.3 on a grass track. How fast is that? No Australian has run faster. Australia's best 800m runner Luke Matthews was recently doing a session of 8x1k on 4 minutes on grass averaging 2:50-2:55.

Now with a background this winter of volume what can he run in the future? That is the fun of the journey. How long should an 800m runner's long run be? I would guess somewhere between 6-22 miles and in that is the Art of coaching will be interesting.

When posters comes on Let'sRun to justify high mileage for 800m athletes usually said posters quote evidence of high mileage in books co-authored by elite 800/1500 runners. We often hear about evidence of high mileage run by Coe, Ovett and Snell. I know Peter Coe advocated lower mileage for Coe, but high mileage advocates pour over every word stated Seb Coe. Any evidence of Coe going on an occasional twenty mile run to many is evidence that high mileage for 800m runners is the answer. Publisher to 800m athlete and sport writer co-author: Joggers buy books advocating high mileage. Would a web site called Let'sSprint geared to 60m to 800m athletes do as well as Let'sRun which seems skewed to Marathon to ultra runners? No. It's been years since I read: Better Training for Distance Runners by David Martin, PhD. & Peter Coe. In the 800m training section, I do not recall Peter Coe or David Martin advocating twenty mile runs for 800m training. Book sold very little for running books. IMO, said book is a great book for runners. I feel the gist of Better Training for Distance Runners is how best to build a 400/800 athlete.

Opinion taken. Yes I believe Coe was doing 11 mile runs as an 18 year old according to Training Distance Runners. I am not advocating 22 mile runs like Snell of course.

The reality is that there is no answer and that is why somewhere between 6-22 miles for a range of athletes.

https://www.runnerstribe.com/features/australia-and-the-mens-800m-part-4-seb-coe-as-a-junior/

Note the last post script by Canova. Interesting!

formerD1 wrote:

Get out of the mindset that 13 mile long runs are appropriate for anyone but a very tiny minority of 800m runners.

Very few 800m coaches are going to let their 800m runners go out for a slow 13 mile run.

At Stanford that would get you laughed off the team. Same goes for Warhurst at Michigan. Name any renowned coaches or programs that would permit this.

Agreed. Don't know why everyone here is obsessed with high mileage, maybe it works for Snell and a few, but you don't see ultra-marathoners dropping 1:50 800s. Speed-based 800 training is the better approach in this day and age.

Rudisha does not run over 50 min. Brazier was stated to train at 20-30 mpw. Sure, Nigel Amos is running higher mileage now and recently ran 1:44, but recall he hit 1:41.xx off of speed training. There was someone on the OTC or NOP that did not run any faster off of higher mileage in general, and even ran slower--I am too lazy to look him up.

If these longer runs work so well, how come the Chinese women in the 90s could not take away the WR in the 800? With drugs and other recovery methods, they basically maxed out endurance. They could take away 1500-10k records, but did not come close in the 800m.

Here's Rudisha training taken from Sweat Elite:

"Greetings from Iten, Kenya!

We joined in with David Rudisha’s training group yesterday.

They train 3 times per day on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays.

Yesterday, being a Wednesday, at 6am the group did a 6-9km run (depending on the athlete) and this was done mostly individually, although some meet up for this run. Pace of this run should be controlled, nothing too hard, around 4:15-4:30/km for most of them - keeping in mind the 2350m (7700ft) altitude and intense hills around Iten.

At 10am they do their "main" workout. This is either track, fartlek, diagonals (120m striding for 30-40mins) or just a run.

Those who have signed up for Sweat Elite Live whilst still at it’s discounted introductory price will have access to many of these workouts in the coming fortnight, as well as more specifics on the program.

(Remember, if you have already purchased an edition with us, you’ll get a further discount for Sweat Elite Live. Introductory price ends the day we leave Kenya, in 2 weeks).

Today's 10am session was an "easy" run (instructed by coach Colm) - 11km in 44mins over a brutal cross country course, muddy and hilly; very rarely flat. They'll start at 5min/km or thereabouts and do the majority at a bit under 4min/km (or around 6min/mile). The last 1km climbed about 80m and the altitude ranges between 2350m-2400m (7700-7850ft). Following this, a 15min stretching exercise will take place, together as a group.

At 4pm, it was a quick 15min jog followed by exercises (ladder), drills, core stability and stretching that lasts around an hour. If you’re interested in more specifics about this workout, they will also be at Sweat Elite Live very soon.

It’s a mighty strong group here at St. Patricks. One 44 second 400m runner, 4 guys under 1:45 for 800m and 4 guys under 28:00 for 10km (including one who ran 42:00 for 15km on the road in France earlier this week).

Iten has an incredible amount of world class athletes training/basing here right now. To name a few:

David Rudisha (800m world record holder, 2 time Olympic Champion).

Augustine Choge (Commonwealth Games 5000m champion, 3:29 1500m, 12:53 5000m, 59:26 Half Marathon)

Paul Chelimo (Silver at Rio 2016 5000m behind Mo Farah)

Dennis Kimetto (Marathon world record holder 2:02:57)

Wilson Kipsang (2:03 marathoner)

Zane Robertson and Jake Robertson (two twins from New Zealand, with 59:47 and 60:00 half marathon personal bests respectively). Both hold national/area records over multiple distances.

Just down the road, a 30min drive away in Eldoret is the base of:

Saif Saaeed Shaheen (world record holder of 3000m steeplechase)

Asbel Kiprop (1500m Olympic Champion, 3:26 personal best)

Eliud Kipchoge (Marathon Olympic Champion 2016, 2:03:05 personal best)

Ezekiel Kemboi (6 World/Olympic Championship Golds over 3000m Steeplechase)

And that’s only on the men’s side...

Back with more soon from the athletes at Iten!

Matt @ Sweat Elite"

2nd installment

"An update from training with David Rudisha’s group in Kenya…

As promised, at Sweat Elite Live there is now in-depth information about the training of David Rudisha and his training group, under coach Colm O’Connell.

If you’re an 800m runner, or an 800m coach, you’ll learn a lot.

There is not much other information out there online about Rudisha’s training. There have been plenty of journalists come to ask simple questions, like “how much overall milage do you do?” and “what is your diet like” but no other media company has actually trained with the group and learnt the details that count.

We have for 2 weeks now. Two to go.

What surprised us?

Although there have been reports and rumours that the group do fairly low mileage (50-60 miles/week maximum) we weren’t sure what to believe. This does turn out to be true. The 800m guys will run at maximum 55 miles in a week, David included… and often less.

But the overall intensity is on another level.

The longest run he’ll do all year is 12km or about 50mins and the longest repetition ever done on track is 800m… and this is rare. Even the quantity/volume of repetitions on the track is low.

What’s also very interesting is how differently they treat recovery than most. Recovery during workouts and recovery in general. Very rarely will recovery be set and locked in for a workout. It’s normally rough, like 3-4mins. Or “walk 200m”.

It’s drilled into them from a very young age to listen to your body very carefully. If you’re very tired, you don’t do the planned workout. They can always tell the difference between being tired and very tired. Tired is ok. Very tired isn’t.

What else?

They do tons of stretching. Probably an average of 30-40mins per day, sometimes more.

They consume no supplements at all; no sports drinks, no protein supplements, nothing like that. They eat purely non-processed food (this is just what’s available in Kenya) and they eat zero junk food.

For those following along with the free content we provide, below is a basic outline of a training week for David Rudisha. By logging into Sweat Elite Live, there is an in-depth analysis of each workout of each day, with paces, recovery, times, key workouts, etc.

This is a typical week in April-May, transitioning from base period to racing period. Base period will be published in 2 weeks time, right when our intro $39/year offer ends.

Monday

6:30AM: Easy Run

10:00AM: Steady Run

4:00PM: Warm Up Run + Stretching + Core

Tuesday

9:00AM: Track Workout (typically at 800m pace or faster) eg 10x200m.

Wednesday

6:30AM: Easy Run

10:00AM: Diagonals

4:00PM: Warm Up Run + Stretching + Plyometrics

Thursday

9:00AM: High Run (maximum effort run) or Fartlek

Friday

6:30AM: Easy Run

10:00AM: Steady Run (easy if tired)

4:00PM: Warm Up Run + Stretching + Drills

Saturday

9:00AM: Track Workout (typically endurance based, but still at between 800m pace and 3km pace) e.g. 4x600m, 4x400m.

Sunday

Rest

Access​ over 10 pages of in-depth information about David Rudisha's training week, ​strength training, diet, mentality of the Kenyan runners and more at Sweat Elite Live now."

good sales pitch..... well done!

Rudisha is a 45 second 400m runner. There isn't anyone here on this website that can do that. Most need more running than less. Rudisha trains as stated up to 3x per day and is a professional. For elites well they aren't reading this but most 1:50'ish 800m runners are limited by the amount of volume that they run or their genetic gifts. Pretty simple mate.

Renato was on here saying Rudisha does alot more miles than people are reporting. He might not do 22 milers but does do alot of running for an ex 400m runner.

"It was a harsh winter (harsh enough to bring down a government) but I ran 12 miles on Christmas morning. It was a hard session and I got home, showered and felt pretty happy with what I had done.

Later that afternoon, sitting back after Christmas lunch, I began to feel uneasy but was not quite sure why. Suddenly it dawned on me. I thought: "I bet [Steve] Ovett's out there doing his second training session of the day." I put the kit back on, faced the snow and ice and did a second training session. I ran several miles, including some hill work."

"I knew that if I wanted to beat Ovett and others in future, I had to run more miles."

Bingo!

MatthewTheHahn wrote:

I know that Canova says a few things about the long run and "aerobic work" for 800m guys.

For general resistance he recommends 1 hour runs

He also highly recommends long FAST runs that are around 40 minutes long at half marathon pace. He also recommends "long" FAST runs of 20 minutes at faster than half marathon pace

Lastly for aerobic support he recommends intervals of 1000m to 3000m at essentially 10000m pace.

I like this method. I think running a "shorter" long run at a "faster" pace is more beneficial.

If your'e running 40 mpw your long run shouldn't be 12-15. Maybe 8-10.

I've read the above paragraph years ago. For those from UK, especially in 70s, 80s & 90s, king of the one mile was very important. The above paragraph has nothing to do with 800m training. Show me quotes from Peter Coe advocating high mileage for 800m, then we'll have a serious discussion.

The top NCAA team in the 800 right now is Iowa State. They have 2 guys at 1:47, 1 at 1:48, and 1 at 1:49. They do a 14 mile long run.

1) I just looked on athletic.net. I did not see any results for 2018 indoor or 2018 outdoor of an Iowa State 800m runner sub-1:48 this season. If there are 1:47.xx 800m athletes at Iowa State this season, good. Maybe your coach hasn't posted results for your sub-1:48 800m athletes. Good luck to your 4 x 800m relay at Penn Relay or Drake Relays or Texas Relays.

2) I did not state Iowa State didn't have a few sub-1:50 800m men.

3) I did not state Iowa State could not produce sub-1:50 800m men with a 14 mile long run.

4) Based on what I read today on athletic.net, a few 1:48 & 1:49 800m men at Iowa State, 2018 contradicts nothing I have previously stated on this thread.

He's training for a sub 3 marathon.

TFRRS is the system used by the NCAA. I just checked it. Iowa State has 4 in the top 23 NCAA outdoor. I would follow what the top program is doing more than what a bunch of guys commenting on a website think. Oh, Iowa State also has the 3rd place woman who was an average high schooler that they turned into a national class runner.