Sloop John B wrote:
Luke V definitely did not have a rabbit when he ran sub 4. His race was a highschool only adidas championship meet.
As I already mentioned, it was a high school only race, but he did have a rabbit.
Sloop John B wrote:
Luke V definitely did not have a rabbit when he ran sub 4. His race was a highschool only adidas championship meet.
As I already mentioned, it was a high school only race, but he did have a rabbit.
Seyta wrote:
I don't get why people don't understand that the depth of competition back then sucked. Amateur athletics laws ensured that runners could not actually make a living running....
You need some cheese with your whine.
Leave this forum and post again when a High Schooler manages to not only beat a recent Olympic champion, but also sniffs the WR.
The rule was amateurs only. Today's pros can afford FAR MORE luxuries--equipment and drugs--that amateurs could not.
Not to be nitpicky about this but pretty sure Ryun had a pace-setter for his first HS
not to be a double nitpicker, but unless someone leads start to end they had at least one "pace-setter". Every sit-and-kicker has never won a race without pacing aid.
dsrunner wrote:
Not to be nitpicky about this but pretty sure Ryun had a pace-setter for his first HS
Ryun ran under 4 minutes five times in high school. All but one of those races (the aforementioned 3:58.3) was in open competition. His only sub 4 in high school only competition was a race he led from gun to finish.
coach deez nuts wrote:
Man, these caveats people keep adding to build up Ryun are getting old. The fact of the matter is multiple high schoolers have run sub 4 in HS only competition. Get the f*ck over it old timers.
Quantify multiple, you young punk. Ryun ran his on cinders at 3pm on a broiling Kansas day in late May.
Via Ventolin's equations that rounds down to a 3:52.2 in perfect conditions.
Christians are stupid fux wrote:
Ryan was a tall rich white over privileged piece of crap.
Webb is short, sociologically and financially disadvantaged, and has worked his button off for everything he has in life.
Agree with you on Ryan, but what about Ryun?
I wonder what old Ryun would think if he knew the way people talk about him on these boards. He's 69 now, retired from congress, and I have no idea if he pays any attention whatsoever to athletics these days.
Calling Jim wrote:
I wonder what old Ryun would think if he knew the way people talk about him on these boards. He's 69 now, retired from congress, and I have no idea if he pays any attention whatsoever to athletics these days.
He has heard much worse than anything posted to LR.
the bricklayer wrote:
Calling Jim wrote:I wonder what old Ryun would think if he knew the way people talk about him on these boards. He's 69 now, retired from congress, and I have no idea if he pays any attention whatsoever to athletics these days.
He has heard much worse than anything posted to LR.
I don't mean just insults-Ryun was once called the most conservative member of congress; I'm sure that distinction has earned him plenty of criticism. I mostly wondered about his thoughts on his athletic career as compared to those who have come after him.
3:55.3 wrote:
Seyta wrote:I don't get why people don't understand that the depth of competition back then sucked. Amateur athletics laws ensured that runners could not actually make a living running....
You need some cheese with your whine.
Leave this forum and post again when a High Schooler manages to not only beat a recent Olympic champion, but also sniffs the WR.
The rule was amateurs only. Today's pros can afford FAR MORE luxuries--equipment and drugs--that amateurs could not.
Do you have issues with reading comprehension? Everything you've said proves my point EXACTLY.
Look at my original post that you're quoting:
Seyta wrote:
If a highschooler today were to defeat the reigning Olympic Champion, it would be a FAR greater feat than what Ryun managed in 1965.
I don't get why people don't understand that the depth of competition back then sucked. Amateur athletics laws ensured that runners could not actually make a living running, and because of that, the only guys who could continue to train at a high level after HS or college were those who were financially secure enough or had jobs that allowed them to do it.
The reason it's impossible now is because the professional runners are actually paid and can dedicate themselves completely to running. A high schooler in 1965 was competing with adults who had to work full time jobs while trying to fit training into their schedule. A high schooler anytime in the last 2+ decades was competing with adults who spent 100% of their time focused on making themselves better runners.
I claimed that IF a high schooler today defeated an Olympic Champion at their prime distance, it would be a bigger deal than when Jim Ryun did it?
My reasoning for this is that today, there are PROFESSIONAL athletes who have luxuries (equipment and drugs, JUST AS YOU SAID) that runners back then did not, and therefore, they are faster relative to modern-day high schoolers?
Does that make sense to you?
If it doesn't, let me spell it out for you with 2 scenarios.
Scenario A: A high schooler in 2016 defeats Taoufik Makhloufi at the 1500m or Mo Farah at either 5000m or 10000m. That means the high schooler just defeated a man whose entire life is dedicated to training, is paid huge sums of money to perform well, and has access to high end training and recovery equipment that provides every advantage possible.
Scenario B: A high schooler in 1965 defeats the equivalent Olympic Champion at the aforementioned distances. That means the high schooler just beat a man who has a passion for running, but has to balance his training with a full-time job. Because the man can make no money from his performance, his athletic career cannot fully take precedence over his life. He still has to show up to work every day, and must time and schedule his training around it.
As for the World Record, if you even think about arguing that a World Record in 1965 is the equivalent of a World Record in 2016, you're completely deranged. 1965 was part of the era of AMATEUR athletics, just as you described. Once again, the following factors were in play back then:
1) Runners could not make money from their performances.
2) Because of Point 1, runners had to balance their athletic lives and work lives once they graduated from college.
3) Because of Point 2, a huge number of talented runners likely never reached their potential, just because other aspects of their lives took precedence.
the sands wrote:
Ryun's American Junior records from 1966 (800m, 1500m, mile) are all about to turn 50 years old this summer. And not only do they still stand, no one has even come close to any of them.
The times change but clocks don't, so far as I know.
And the Peter Snell of 1965 could step on a track today and be competitive at 800m. Still holds the NZ record. John Walker is #2.
My claim was not that high schoolers today are superior to Jim Ryun. It's that Jim Ryun being able to defeat the reigning Olympic Champion isn't nearly as great as people claim.
The top high schoolers over the last several decades have not made any great leaps forward, which makes perfect sense, considering the vast majority of high schoolers only train seriously for ~4 years or less, and the vast majority of high school coaches have no idea what they're doing. Additionally, while training technology has moved forward significantly, a lot of that doesn't reach the high school level at all. I doubt there is a single high school team that provides its runners with underwater treadmills, professional dieticians, personal athletic trainers, etc.
So while professional running has made leaps and bounds (comparing Rudisha's 800m time to Snell's is like comparing El Guerrouj to a 3:33 1500m runner), high school running has not.
Another detail to note, which I'm surprised more people don't point out given how much they claim to know about Snell; 1965 was the twilight of Snell's career. He burned VERY bright, and VERY quickly, with his peak being from 1960 - 1964. He subsequently burned himself out and retired just a year later. Snell was basically on his last legs when he ran against Ryun.
High school aged guys beating some of the best in the world still happens in this century. But now, they come from east Africa have names like Eliud Kipchoge and Yomif Kejelcha.
No soft competition, either: 18-year-old Kipchoge won the 2003 world championships 5000m over Bekele and El G.
Uknow wrote:
High school aged guys beating some of the best in the world still happens in this century. But now, they come from east Africa have names like Eliud Kipchoge and Yomif Kejelcha.
No soft competition, either: 18-year-old Kipchoge won the 2003 world championships 5000m over Bekele and El G.
Setya's brain is the soft thing here. He is obviously a millennial who believe young people are so superior to older people that they qualify as a new species. Therefore, all past performances must be erased from the books.
How about Vashti Cunningham winning the world indoor gold in the HJ while still in HS? Not a mile or running event, but comparable to Ryun winning at the international level?
coach deez nuts wrote:
Man, these *caveats* people keep adding to build up Ryun are getting old. The fact of the matter is multiple high schoolers have run sub 4 in HS only competition. Get the f*ck over it old timers.
Learn the definition of "caveat".
When Jim Ryun was in HS he held the American Record for the mile. No HS runner will ever do that again
Christians are stupid fux wrote:
Ryan was a tall rich white over privileged piece of crap.
Webb is short, sociologically and financially disadvantaged, and has worked his button off for everything he has in life.
Actually Webb comes from a wealthy family - his father worked for the criminals at the IMF. Ryun was from the lower end of the middle class, as you are from the lower end of the IQ spectrum like the peoples you bend over for.
The whole rabbit situation is fuzzy. In that 1965 race, Ryun was basically rabbited the whole race - they just weren't called rabbits they were 'the competition'. Conversely, designated rabbits are often worse than useless.
It is apparent that the professional ranks lacked significant money back then and therefore the competition was not as good, as evidenced by how much pro times have dropped since then compared to HS times. Note that this is not a true credit to Ryun, who deserves respect, but please don't suggest that a Ryun placed in HS meets today could compete with the pros.
Seyta wrote:
3:55.3 wrote:You need some cheese with your whine.
Leave this forum and post again when a High Schooler manages to not only beat a recent Olympic champion, but also sniffs the WR.
The rule was amateurs only. Today's pros can afford FAR MORE luxuries--equipment and drugs--that amateurs could not.
Do you have issues with reading comprehension? Everything you've said proves my point EXACTLY.
Look at my original post that you're quoting:
Seyta wrote:
If a highschooler today were to defeat the reigning Olympic Champion, it would be a FAR greater feat than what Ryun managed in 1965.
I don't get why people don't understand that the depth of competition back then sucked. Amateur athletics laws ensured that runners could not actually make a living running, and because of that, the only guys who could continue to train at a high level after HS or college were those who were financially secure enough or had jobs that allowed them to do it.
The reason it's impossible now is because the professional runners are actually paid and can dedicate themselves completely to running. A high schooler in 1965 was competing with adults who had to work full time jobs while trying to fit training into their schedule. A high schooler anytime in the last 2+ decades was competing with adults who spent 100% of their time focused on making themselves better runners.
I claimed that IF a high schooler today defeated an Olympic Champion at their prime distance, it would be a bigger deal than when Jim Ryun did it?
My reasoning for this is that today, there are PROFESSIONAL athletes who have luxuries (equipment and drugs, JUST AS YOU SAID) that runners back then did not, and therefore, they are faster relative to modern-day high schoolers?
Does that make sense to you?
If it doesn't, let me spell it out for you with 2 scenarios.
Scenario A: A high schooler in 2016 defeats Taoufik Makhloufi at the 1500m or Mo Farah at either 5000m or 10000m. That means the high schooler just defeated a man whose entire life is dedicated to training, is paid huge sums of money to perform well, and has access to high end training and recovery equipment that provides every advantage possible.
Scenario B: A high schooler in 1965 defeats the equivalent Olympic Champion at the aforementioned distances. That means the high schooler just beat a man who has a passion for running, but has to balance his training with a full-time job. Because the man can make no money from his performance, his athletic career cannot fully take precedence over his life. He still has to show up to work every day, and must time and schedule his training around it.
As for the World Record, if you even think about arguing that a World Record in 1965 is the equivalent of a World Record in 2016, you're completely deranged. 1965 was part of the era of AMATEUR athletics, just as you described. Once again, the following factors were in play back then:
1) Runners could not make money from their performances.
2) Because of Point 1, runners had to balance their athletic lives and work lives once they graduated from college.
3) Because of Point 2, a huge number of talented runners likely never reached their potential, just because other aspects of their lives took precedence.