Scientists & doctors please chime in - Is EPO a prescription given to malaria patients as a 2:05 marathoner claims?

i mean to say, no idea about eop and malaria.

Dick Pound wrote:

Turning to the LRC message boards for evidence is sad. Somebody get this guy a library card!

Rojo is not as silly as he looks, it's a click generating thread and it's working.

A couple of things:

1. Upon further review, I stand corrected on EPO predating the mid-80s. It was nearly a decade latter before it made it's way into the U.S. running community, but it never caught on big because the health risk.

2. It appears EPO was a gold mine for cheaters, because it is a good PED, for a while it wasn't illegal and for a long time there were tests for it. Even today, with the absence of OOC testing, it is relatively easy use. If an athletes uses micro dosages, because it naturally occurs in the body, the WADA thresholds are such that it is possible to stay under the radar unless you are so unlucky that the testers show up at your door with in a day or two after you doped. Obviously, you need to cycle complete off during competition.

3. I think most people on this message board don't realize how much of a resource and straight shooter Coach Canova is. Even when he is not fully correct, I think his information is based on what he knows. I think Coach Canova underestimate the doping and age cheating problem in Kenya, but when you are doing things the right way, you are somewhat disconnected from the bad guys.

Clerk wrote:

While an athlete claiming EPO use as therapy for malaria is unprecedented, here is a case where an athlete claimed malaria caused the suspicious fluctuations in her Biopassport.

Turkish athlete Alemitu Bekele was banned for 4 years on a biopassport violation....

So, different from the OP about EPO treatment for Malaria. I wish there were more details on exactly how the IAAF witnesses Prof Schumacher and Prof D'Onofrio argued that Malaria was bogus. I want to know more about the possibility or impossibility of a ABP panel review seeing some abnormalities as a consequence of Malaria in isolation.

longjack wrote:

i mean to say, no idea about eop and malaria.

????

Exactly. That's why I asked the question. If you know more, do share.

doot doot wrote:

Didn't Chris Froome claim to be treated for malaria before he won the TDF?

Not malaria, Bilharzia.

You get the same comical effect where nothing in the story lines up and he suddenly leaps from national elite, to international elite.

What a great excuse for doping. Why didn't Paula Radcliffe use it?

I think with the blood passport it is much more difficult to get away with EPO, even microdosing. If you use enough to cause a change in your blood haemoglobin levels (what you want) then the blood passport will pick this up when compared against your previous levels and the other comparisons the blood passport uses.

I don't believe the blood passport is as simple as "levels higher than x indicate doping". I may be wrong.

On another note, I am yet to see a scientifically carried out study with a control group that shows microdosing EPO even works to improve performance. The only 'studies' I have come across so far are one's carried out by TV journalists where they get some untrained people, give them tiny amounts of EPO, train them hard for 3-6 weeks and marvel at how their VO2 Max has improved.

Well done! hot-like-fiya...this is more like what I was going to look for...thank you. As you pointed out..identification of the gene code in 1983...and patent on Nov.30,1984 is not the same thing as availability of the drug... which I still will stand by my 1986 to 1987 estimate for any athlete from any endurance sport...and it was most likely the sport of cycling.

I think the introduction of EPO to the sport of cycling by Dr. Conconi, who was publishing studies on serum EPO levels in cross-country skiers in 1988 is very suspicious, as it is the same year that Bordin from Italy won the marathon and Antibo won silver in the 10k. Renato Canova admitted that Antibo did blood transfusions pre 1985, as did Alberto Cova, the gold medal 10k winner in 1984. I personally do not think that the Italians or anyone else stopped doing blood transfusions when they were banned in 1985, because there was no test for detection of transfusions. I suspect that Bordin and Antibo did blood transfusions and/or EPO...they are both types of cheating by blood manipulation...so I do not care which method someone uses to cheat. Renato Canova with his friend Luciano Gigliotti were responsible for the Italian marathoners from 1986.

Luciano Gigliotti was coach to Bordin and 2004 marathon gold medalist Stefano Baldini...who beat Paul Tergat among many other great, Kenyan and Ethiopian runners born, living, and training at altitude back in 2004.

Italians had a period of dominance in the late 1980s and early 1990s in not just marathon running... but also cross-country skiing...a golden era. Gianni Polli and another Italian won the NYC marathon. Bordin won Boston in 1990.

Renato Canova has also stated that he has known Rita Jeptoo for many years...and he has also known coach Claudio Berardelli for many years.

Claudio Berardelli was the coach at one of the 5 training camps run by Frederico Rosa...and finally had his contract terminated by Rosa when Berardelli had 3 runners with doping positives: 2:18 marathoner Rita Jeptoo, 58 min 1/2 Mar Matthew Kisorio (anabolic steroid nandrolone positive), and Agatha Jeruto(anabolic steroid norandrosterone positive).

Please read the article I posted with the interview of Frederico Rosa...and then ask yourself if he seems a little "suspicious". Rosa when asked about whether other runners of his had ever had doping positives... said no...but he left out that at the 2003 WC cross country champs...his runner Pamela Chepchumba...tested positive for EPO. For me personally, I find it suspicious that he forgot mentioning Pamela Chepchumba in 2003.

I think the fact that Dr. Gabriele Rosa came to Kenya in 1991...right about the time that I personally believe EPO entered the sport of track and road running in a more widespread way around 1991 to 1992 (for example...Dieter Baumann 1992 5k gold, Fermin Cacho 1500m gold, Khalid Skah from Morocco 10k gold, Qu Junxia 1500m bronze, Boulmerka from Algeria 1500m gold, Romanova 3k gold, Valentina Yegorova marathon gold) and then of course all the Chinese records which were set in 1993, with Wang Junxia at 3k and 10k world records still standing today 23 years later...

Renato Canova has also stated that he believes Wang Junxia was probably just a great, natural talent who did not take EPO, even though he stated that the other Chinese women probably did take EPO. Wang Junxia ran faster times in 1 week that ALL Kenyan and ALL Ethiopian top tier runners born, living, and training at altitude and ALL doping runners from all countries in the world in the last 23 years . Paula Radcliffe at 2:15 would also be 3 minutes faster than ALL Kenyans, ALL Ethiopians, and ALL doping runners from all countries over the last 13 years...which would mean Renato's theory about Kenyan runners at altitude being the best natural talents in the world... is incorrect.

Renato Canova has also stated that EPO does not improve performance in top tier Kenyan or Ethiopian runners born, living, and doing high-level training at altitude...and his arguments do not agree with the findings of the scientific literature...which he states are all wrong...and do not apply to this specific group of people. I personally do not agree with these statements by Renato Canova.

I and many other people at LRC do not agree with many, many statements that have been made by Renato Canova at this site over the years.

One more conspiracy point...Can you imagine the incredible ADVANTAGE.. if a group of athletes.. from perhaps just one or two countries....had access to EPO before the rest of the sporting world did?

.... and how that could lead to a lot of competitive success in many endurance sports...but for a limited time period...until the rest of the world discovered the secret...and then the competitive advantage would be gone forever!...

Metric Miler wrote:

On another note, I am yet to see a scientifically carried out study with a control group that shows microdosing EPO even works to improve performance. The only 'studies' I have come across so far are one's carried out by TV journalists where they get some untrained people, give them tiny amounts of EPO, train them hard for 3-6 weeks and marvel at how their VO2 Max has improved.

And cigarettes were never proven to cause cancer. At this point we have enough anecdotal information to believe a micro-dosing epo regimen works wonderfully.

Surprising no one, I'm sure there are "doubts" and "concerns" you have that you will elaborate on in great detail as to how/why the anecdotal evidence should be discarded.

That's ignoring the simple fact the IAAF is known to NOT sanction some athletes with dodgy values. There are so many integrity problems with the system that nobody outside very few at the IAAF know with any confidence how clean the sport is. Coe doesn't know, that's for sure. He claims to know nothing, see nothing.

I'm mad, bro.

sayer of you mad bro wrote:

doot doot wrote:

Didn't Chris Froome claim to be treated for malaria before he won the TDF?

Not malaria, Bilharzia.

You get the same comical effect where nothing in the story lines up and he suddenly leaps from national elite, to international elite.

What a great excuse for doping. Why didn't Paula Radcliffe use it?

I just remember reading this dude was living/training in Kenya and being treated for some serious, serious shit before winning the TDF-- like a half dozen treatments. Then boom, there's his sickly, alien, cachectic frame just cranking out watts.

Paula's illness is something all together more difficult to treat ..

a couple of points:

1. as per the citations already referenced in this thread, there is excellent evidence (published in Nature, many citations in pubmed) that EPO can be helpful in treating severe cerebral malaria.

2. it seems the few doctors on this thread have not used it or heard of the treatment. It might be worth their while to investigate it. However they may be used to seeing the less severe forms of malaria, for which the EPO would not typically be helpful.

3. there are several different types of malaria and it's important to distinguish them.

http://www.cdc.gov/malaria/about/facts.html

P. vivax and P. ovale can develop dormant liver stages, so the malaria can re-occur even if there is not another infection. This is common throughout Africa, and in colonials who have contracted it. Typically these strains of malaria produce symptoms like extreme flu. Infection with these strains can produce relatively mild symptoms.

The CDC again,

"the patient presents with a combination of the following symptoms:

Fever Chills Sweats Headaches

Nausea and vomiting Body aches General malaise

In countries where cases of malaria are infrequent, these symptoms may be attributed to influenza, a cold, or other common infections, especially if malaria is not suspected. Conversely, in countries where malaria is frequent, residents often recognize the symptoms as malaria and treat themselves without seeking diagnostic confirmation ("presumptive treatment")."

The P. falciparum has different effects, leading to extremely high fevers and potential cerebral malaria, which is often fatal. EPO seems to be a relatively new treatment for this, so most doctors would not yet have heard of it. However anything that can alleviate cerebral malaria would be a godsend.

Also from the CDC,

"Recurrent infections with P. falciparum may result in severe anemia."

In this case obviously EPO would be helpful as well.

4. I contracted cerebral malaria in Malawi despite taking prophylactics. It turned out to be a new drug-resistant strain of P. falciparum, brought over by mercenaries who had been in SE Asia and then went to the Congo.

The fever for the first two days was high enough that I lost consciousness for most of the time. It was treated with quinine and antibiotic IVs. I lost 30lbs in a week, from 160 down to 130 (at 6'2"). It took two years to be able to train normally again, and I never got anywhere near my pre-malaria PRs. Anemia has been a constant companion ever since.

5. my conclusion: if Erupe had P. falciparum either in its cerebral form, or with multiple infections, then treatment with EPO seems entirely reasonable.

Given the rates of HIV, I too would be very reluctant to get a blood transfusion, even if the blood was available.

If he had cerebral malaria which was quickly treated, it's possible the malaria did not have a major impact. However my experience after cerebral malaria was that it was ruinous..

If the malaria was the relatively more innocuous forms, then EPO does not seem to be a reasonable treatment. In this case recovery from a bout of malaria can be fast, so running a good marathon six weeks later is quite possible.

...so, do almost all of us here agree.. that it is VERY unlikely that any 2:03 or 2:05 top tier Kenyan runners was getting needed treatment for malaria with EPO...and hopefully that no top tier Kenyan runners should have TUEs for the use of EPO for any medical condition... including malaria.

.....and that this is just another cover story for possible EPO use as a PED...

I agree with this statement.

an anecdote, adduced to show recovery from the milder form of malaria is typically fast,

"Malaria passes quickly and leaves a man little the worse.."

https://books.google.com/books?id=A00_AQAAIAAJ&pg=RA2-PA196&lpg=RA2-PA196&dq=richard+hannay+malaria&source=bl&ots=iv0PSmcCpy&sig=I6fZNo-7fhWXEwfGqcR81YdMyxs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjdj7Hm9__LAhUUwWMKHX6kDTMQ6AEIQDAG#v=onepage&q=richard%20hannay%20malaria&f=false

I have no doubt that EPO improves performance. That has been proven conclusively.

I have not seen scientific evidence that microdosing EPO below the level that would trigger a positive urine test causes increased performance in professional athletes. I do not dispute it could work, but I am unsure of it's effectiveness. I don't think I am being ridiculous.

I am not well versed in this anecdotal evidence, especially with regards to beating the blood passport. The blood passport is designed to pick up on unusual patterns in an athletes blood.

The biological passport is pretty advanced.

'Dodgy values' aren't evidence in themselves, you can't just ban someone for being suspicious.

Don't appreciate the passive aggressiveness by the way ;).

This is a really good point by Metric Miler!...I have thought about exactly this question recently.

I don't think there are any published microdosing studies on EPO use in athletes...actually I am guessing that there are not any...I have not actually looked ...someone can go check if there are any.

The ABP has huge margin to avoid false positives..as the Paula thread has shown...Paula could have an OOC test Hb score of 16.2g/dl...which actually gives an OFF score of 109.35, which is below the altitude cutoff of 111...so a Hb of 16.2 is actually given a result of "not suspicious"!

The ABP will only detect about 30 to 70% of dopers...depending on when the tests are performed in relation to last use of EPO.

It may also be possible to use EPO daily by IV in small amounts, instead of usual subQ administration 2-3x week...to have rapid clearance of the EPO.. .to make the detection window very small...while still getting the effect of increased Hb values to improve performance. I have never done this experiment...so I do not know what the result would be.

However, I think the experiments has already been performed...with results that will remain unpublished...because the experiments were performed by doctors such as Dr. Michele Ferrari and Dr. "Blood" Fuentes.

Not sure how you can say you don't think you're being ridiculous and in the next sentence say you are not well versed.

First, remember that the BP starts with a computer analysis of samples. Athletes are flagged based on their off-scores using algorithms. There is no subjective review until the panel.

Here's some anecdotal points on beating the BP and EPO tests:

(Full doses could be >1500 units)

The BP algorithms are easy to trick. Above they describe a saline drip. You don't even have to go that far. Drinking a liter of water changes the detectability rate by 25% (From 40% detectability to 11%)

[quote]fter 10 days of rhEPO washout, 10 subjects ingested normal amount of water (∼ 270 mL), whereas the remaining 10 ingested a 1000 mL bolus of water. Blood variables were measured 20, 40, 60, and 80 min after ingestion. Three days later, the subjects were crossed-over with regard to water ingestion and the procedure was repeated. OFF-hr was reduced by ∼ 4%, ∼ 3%, and ∼ 2% at 40, 60, and 80 min, respectively, after drinking 1000 mL of water, compared with normal water ingestion (P 

Cut myself off there...

Here's that quote

[quote]After 10 days of rhEPO washout, 10 subjects ingested normal amount of water (∼ 270 mL), whereas the remaining 10 ingested a 1000 mL bolus of water. Blood variables were measured 20, 40, 60, and 80 min after ingestion. Three days later, the subjects were crossed-over with regard to water ingestion and the procedure was repeated. OFF-hr was reduced by ∼ 4%, ∼ 3%, and ∼ 2% at 40, 60, and 80 min, respectively, after drinking 1000 mL of water, compared with normal water ingestion (P 

Clerk with another very well done post!... I have said many times that Clerk must read a lot...and I have also stated many times that... in my opinion...Dr. Michele Ferrari is a very smart guy...a mad genius in a way...with Lance as his pharmaceutical experiment gone mad!

Dr. Ferrari (the student of Dr. Conconi from Italy that I have mentioned before)...is presently in trouble with Italian tax authorities for hiding large amounts of MONEY in secret bank accounts...which unfortunately for Dr. Ferrari...are no longer secret!...

no

nonsense

learn to read

utterly clueless

this is Africa

prescriptions hand-written where computers are non-existent

easier still to buy chloroquine from locals if your fever goes to

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