Sometimes I feel depressed about my lack of "talent"

gah, just run more. stop blaming it on talent. what more can you expect off 35-40 mpw?

Interesting thread, and full of good ideas.

I just wanted to second what was mentioned above about the HADD thread. Very interesting. Google "Hadd document" and you'll find a nice, concise write up on it.

The other thing I wanted to mention was about heart rate. One other poster suggested keeping your easy days easy. I've been experimenting with this for a few months and have found it to be extremely interesting. It is only an experiment of 1, and the results are not really in as my goal race (a 50k) has not happened yet.

I felt like I was reading everywhere (on more than just running forums) about HR training, and mostly the Maffetone method. Maf gets a lot of crap for how rigid and slow it feels, but I figured I could be patient and give it a go. At 35 years old my Maf HR was 145 beats per minute. So in theory all my training runs when I'm in the base phase should be below that.

I had been running for a few months, coming back after a long lay off, and I was consciously keeping everything easy, cruising around an 8 minute mile. When I got my HR I couldn't believe how slow 145 was. I had to walk a few times. OK, more than a few times. I even started giving myself a +5 buffer just so I could keep going.

After 3 weeks I was pissed at Maf and started looking at other HR theories (this is when I found Hadd) like Heart Rate Reserve and coaches like Daniels, Friel, etc. I put together a list of aerobic range HRs I should be in, and they were all between 142 and 151. So Maf was basically right in the middle and I went back to that and slogged through some miles in the high 9 minute range.

But then after 6 weeks things started feeling noticeably different. I was doing 90+ minute runs feeling awesome. Really, really awesome. They were not taking anything out of me. Most of my runs were on the trail so I had given up on pace, but when I revisited the bike path with mile markers I saw I was doing about 8:20 minute miles and staying in the mid 140s. It felt good.

Another 4 weeks went by and I started noticing my HR was more often in the 130s than the 140s. I went back to the bike path and I was holding 137 to 139 and running 7:50s. No one in their lets run mind would say that is fast, but it was the fastest, and easiest, run I'd ever done. And things are still getting faster.

So consider checking something like this out. From what you've said about slogging through your miles, not really finding an hour run easy, and guessing that your easy days are not easy, you might find spending a little time running by HR can help you build your aerobic engine and build your miles at the same time.

Interesting comment, thank you. I read the HADD thread a couple years ago (2012 I believe) and implemented it at a time with good results, though at a lower level (i.e. not so many miles). It's an amazing document. My max HR is about 190. resting HR about 45-50. Running at HR 140 is about right/easy, and in the past I found running at HR 160 to be incredibly efficient (those long tempos).

I want to clarify one thing about those hour long easy runs however: when I wrote I don't find them easy, it's not that I tire, it's the other way around. I tend to run all easy runs progressively faster (I always start super slow like 9-9:30 then something like 8:30, 8:15, 8:00 and sometimes 7:45-7:30 by the end). But these are short 3-5 miles. When I read all posters advising for 1-1.5 hr easy runs, are these supposed to replace a workout day? My logic, which may have been sound but that I now doubt, would be that a schedule such as Easy-Hard-E-H-E-E-H would need the E days to be short i.e. I never found space for longer easy runs other than Saturdays.

Based on everything I have read in this thread, it seems like the logical step for me is now to build easy volume, shed some extra fat, do what needs to be done to keep that volume (be it doubles, easy, soft surfaces, low HR, no workouts, treadmill and more likely a mix of all). Do that for as long as I can without races. Keep the speed with some strides or occasional 200s. Target maybe 50 mpw all May (consistent), and 60 mpw in June. In July reintroduce that speed here and there, and marathon train in Aug-Sep peaking at 70 (not much more volume given that we now have more workouts) and run Berlin in late Sep (my first non hilly marathon. Only ran NYC). Target 1:30 at the half, accept the possibility of cramping but go for it and have a goal A of sub 3, goal B of sub 3:10 and goal C of just PR. With that extra experience, recover for 2 weeks, then spend Oct-Nov-Dec doing even more easy mileage, and go for sub 3 in marathon #5 in early 2017.

The only thing I'm not sure to implement yet is the "get more speed to make marathon pace easier". Because I know my issue is conversion. When I first broke 40 in the 10k I only managed to run 3:40! The 3:16 came in with a 38:45 10k PR because in that prep I was able to peak at 50 mpw. And I was fat at 160 lbs, and it was NY with some winds. I need to and will try harder. If the volume approach won't work I wouldn't mind spending more time working on pure speed next year. Thanks so much for all the advice and I hope others in a similar position will benefit from all this good stuff.

Yes I can still remember being told by my ex wife about my distinct lack of talent with my tongue. It hurts sometimes.

Reading this thread humbles me up a little bit. I always get depressed that I'm not faster then I want to be. My pr's are 15:32 3 mile, 15:51 5k, 26:21 8k, 1:13 half.

I guess when I'm reading these posts everyone is faster then what they really are. Really interesting read and great advice.

My solution from reading this is maybe you will never be satisfied because you always want to be better.

8/10. You got a lot of serious answers.

A guy who could run 38min 10k on a very low mileage whining about "lack of talent"? What else is new?

A Troll detector wrote:

8/10. You got a lot of serious answers.

A guy who could run 38min 10k on a very low mileage whining about "lack of talent"? What else is new?

I am under the impression that your post is satire/irony...been working at it for 8 years man, and even if I never ran a ton (mostly because of injury fears) I am one of the most committed/obsessed runners you can find.

I wrote the pathetic title of this thread right after a race, in which I looked all around me and saw either 1) women at their top of their AG and 2) older male runners who clearly were good. Not many people like me. A bit of a weak moment I admit, but I am glad I did, because there is now indeed a lot of good advice packaged in this thread.

OP here.

PR'ed in the half today, in 1:23:59. Moderately hilly course i.e. fair but not fast one. I don't race all-out often, as this was my first in 3 years.

From Jan to now I ran about 40-45 mpw and peaked at 50 (one week in Feb, one week in Apr) and training got sidetracked by flu (12 days off).

4 weeks before the half I did not PR in 10k, but ran 38:25 (three weeks after flu hence not 100%).

Questions for LR: I am registered for the flat, fast Berlin marathon in late September. My PR at NYC is 3:16 high.

1) With good training, do I have a chance at 3:05? Or given new half PR, could I target 3:00 (at the risk of blowing up?)

2) What is the roadmap to get there from where I am? I understand that sub 1:24 on 45 mpw at 5'7 / 150 lbs is not ideal, but besides losing some weight and upping the mileage (I'm thinking May: slow/easy 50 mpw, June 60 mpw ,summer peak at 70 mpw at most), anything I should or not do? I'm thinking to take the consensus of this thread which has been slow easy build mileage, but worried by (hmmm) "speed" (yes, lol) may suffer.

Any thoughts? and thanks!

Your speed will not suffer. Do strides several times a week. This works on your biomechanics and leg speed without the injury risk of speedwork. You should definitely spend the summer building your base.

Your story is quite similar to mine. I started running at age 24 being fat (5'8'' and 195 lbs).

That was 7 years ago. For the first three or so years I run maybe 20-30 mpw without much thinking about what I was doing and why. Though I wanted to progress, it didn't really happen. Then I became interested in training theory, biomechanics, biochemistry. I started to read all I could find and especially the training principles of great runners. That changed my perspective and for the last three years my training and nutrition has become much more "professional".

Now I'm weighing 138 lbs, my mileage is around 55-60 mpw and my PR's are as follows:

- half-marathon 1:17:3X

- 10k haven't run yet but recently I split 36:2X en route in the longer run

- 5k 16:3X

-3k 9:2X

This hasn't come easy. It's a hard, consistentm, dedicated work for the past 4-5 years or so but I still believe I can reach much more.

From my perspective you haven't reached your potential yet. 150 lbs is too much if you want to be a good runner. Also your mileage is way too low for half/marathon racing.

Curiously, I lack "talent" yet not a hint of depression marks my daily existence. Keep on shufflin' dude!

TellMeHonestly wrote:[/b

1) With good training, do I have a chance at 3:05? Or given new half PR, could I target 3:00 (at the risk of blowing up?)

2) What is the roadmap to get there from where I am? I understand that sub 1:24 on 45 mpw at 5'7 / 150 lbs is not ideal, but besides losing some weight and upping the mileage (I'm thinking May: slow/easy 50 mpw, June 60 mpw ,summer peak at 70 mpw at most), anything I should or not do? I'm thinking to take the consensus of this thread which has been slow easy build mileage, but worried by (hmmm) "speed" (yes, lol) may suffer.

Any thoughts? and thanks!

1) Yes. Yes.

2) You are at a point in your running career when you can still take massive chunks out of your marathon time simply by increasing training volume (and, as you've recognized, losing weight). So do it. Although it is certainly possible to maintain or increase speed while increasing volume, it's highly likely that trying to do so will compromise the goal of greater aerobic fitness through increased training volume. It's just not the optimal approach for someone who is getting serious about running relatively late in life; you don't have the luxury of spending the next ten years gradually developing both speed and endurance over many training cycles as your body matures. Your really big gains will come from increased volume, so focus on that.

You have something like 21 weeks until the Berlin Marathon. So spend maybe twelve weeks focusing on nothing but increasing volume and adapting to that greater work load. (Some easy "strides" are fine if you're able to restrain yourself from turning them into more stressful "speed" sessions.) You will still have time to add more intense training, such as hill work, marathon pace training, threshold runs, interval sessions, preliminary races, or whatever else might be in fashion.

Is that an absolutely optimal schedule? Probably not. But I think it's pretty darn good, likely better than what would result from lots of tinkering, and if you can do it while maintaining a difficult and unpredictable work and travel schedule, you should be in very good shape to hit your goals.

(One other bit of unsolicited advice: If anyone ever talks to you about how to increase your VO2 max, put your hands over your ears and run for the nearest exit. That which is heard can never be unheard.)

That's an amazing accomplishment, congratulations to you, and many thanks for the encouragement! Knowing I can still improve is the biggest motivator, You are right that it takes work, and not just "running hard" as I sometimes do. The weight, the volume I need to improve. Prior to this thread, perhaps I was delusional because I have kept on getting faster (but not where I want to be in the marathon!)

Thanks for the great advice! I will need to take it easy (or even couple days off) after today's half, as I really ran hard and now have pain on the side of my hip (prolly some inflammation at the top of gluteus minimus) but then after that, I'm all far easy, slow mileage and won't rush things.

Oddly enough, when traveling a lot, I feel like just doing mileage will be easier than trying to train for a marathon, since I will be able to move things around better, and even do short doubles on hotel treadmills in morning and evening when highly time constrained.

I'm looking forward to it right now, finally a radical shift in training! if I don't feel ready for Berlin, I might do something completely different (50k trail as super long run in late Sep) and target Philly in late November instead. Not as flat, but close to home (NY) and I think not too hilly. If I don't obsess with a training schedule and instead put it as many miles as I can, easily, then I feel like I'll be able to get primed better for the next one, and in less time.

You guys are great! Thanks a lot. Breaking 1:24 was a bit of a dream for me in the half, and I look forward to doing better in a full.

Quick update. After (very narrowly) breaking 1:24 half I had to take 2 weeks off to strained gluteus med (overdid it with a last 0.5 mile at 5:30 pace during the race) but now it's all good and healed.

In the last 6 weeks or so, I've done something I've never done before: just run easily, no workout, 7 days a week without too high variation between short (5.5 miles) and long (9.5) miles. That gets me near 50 mpw as a base.

I plan on a November marathon now, giving me more time. For the next 30 days I plan on running 50-55 mpw again easily, with maybe a few progressive runs, but mostly all of it at 8:00-9:00 pace (I'm slow!).

Then I am thinking about the Pfitzinger 18/70 plan. This is (I think) what I need, as I've never done medium long runs in the week, only low mileage more "intense" training.

Do I have the necessary base to begin the 18/70? would that be a good roadmap to a possible 3:00-3:05? Thinking about Philly. Also working on weight/sleep to improve odds. The 1:24 half was on a more hilly course, but 100% all out and I perform much better at the half than the full (PR 3:16)

Thanks in advance!

You ran the last 0.5 mile of the half at 5:30 pace to average just 6:24s. The race was not close to all out.

I think you are onto something the last 6 weeks or so. You have tons of time you can drop. This schedule was first posted (not by me) on here in 2005 but I am reposting it as you need to see it:

Throw in one or two races PER MONTH and you've got a nice recipe. If you're like me, you may find out that you prefer this type of training to your previous methods. I have been following the same basic schedule for three years now:

M-50 minutes with 7 miles @ aerobic threshold (5:45 pace)

T-50 easy plus striders

W-50 minutes with 3 x 1 mile at 12k pace (90 second rest)

R-50 minutes easy plus striders

F-50 minutes easy plus striders

St-2 hours medium with striders

Sn-50 minutes easy plus striders

On this training, I have run 15:12 5k, 31:30 10k, and a 2:28 marathon---not PRs, but within 2.5%. That is, I'm training at 50% of my former training mileage, but racing at 97.5% of my personal bests. (That means 4 or 5 minutes slower than his best marathon.) I actually like running again too.

To fill in the paces, your 38 for 10k suggests 12k pace would be 6:15 for 1600s on the track. Aerobic threshold would be 7:35 and medium for the 2 hour run would start at 8:30 for the first hour and slowly work down to 8:00 for the last mile. Remember racing every month is IMPORTANT.

I ran a mid 35 10 and sub 17 5k after two years of running when I started at 27.

I would say that was probably above average talent. But then I got injured to the point where I had to quit, and I'd say that was below average talent.

So being able to run as long as you have and continue to do so and continue to improve and put up decent times, I'd say that's talent enough. Keep pressing on and forward.

Work on your form and running economy. Do more strides, short intervals to work on turnover. And just get more consistent overall.

It was more like the last 0.3 mi at 5:25 or so, but yes, I hammered the finish (it was slightly downhill). I agree I have more time to drop, but really, my only time goal is the marathon with a lifelong goal of sub 3:00. The training you reference is very solid and I like (particularly the aerobic threshold run, I often did 6-10 miles at ~7:00 pace and it gets you strong quick). But would it work given my weaknesses (I get worse as distance gets worse, and my marathons are a cramp-fest). Your 2:28 is far beyond what I can comprehend! Congrats...

Immediately after posting my idea of doing the Pftiz 18/70 following ~ 2 months of 50 mpw base I immediately regretted it, because it seems like his plan adds workouts at the same time as it adds volume, and that's what got me (and others) hurt. I'll continue building volume and consistency alone first and will write down the schedule you highlight. May need more time than you (as in 60 minutes every day as opposed to 50) given that the distance I cover is significantly less (my average is roughly 7 mph or 8:30).

thank you very much

on the racing: I race 2-3 times a year max (one 4 miler, one 10k, one half or full) so yeah, maybe I should look into it. i do destroy my body on each race though, arguably b/c every time I'm undertrained.