Sometimes I feel depressed about my lack of "talent"

Talentless success wrote:

Just peruse this site and realize talent goes hand in hand with miscreant behavior, social isolation and vitriol. That realization should make you feel better.

I see what you mean, but so far, all answers have been immensely useful (to me and hopefully many others in the same kind of spot).

I think one under-represented demographics here is the 30-45 yo professional who is mixing "heavy" training and demanding jobs/constraints. I don't want to whine like a B again, but damn, I sometimes redeye NYC to say Norway, go straight to meetings all day, and fly to London the same night, then go run at 11 PM when I finally get to hotel, before a 6 AM wake up for a similar day. That's why I am sometimes happy for a light 3 miler on the hotel treadmill :)

Can't wait for the slower summer months so I can train like you guys suggest!! Doubles, and lots of time living a healthy lifestyle with proper sleep and nutrition.

To the OP,

Here are some of the "hard truths" that you seem to be asking for. Your training and goals are borderline delusional, but are understandable given your background. As you've described it, you made steady progress in the first several years of running, and successfully achieved solid sub-elite status in the 10K (sub 40) and Half (~1:30) following the training program that you described.

This actually indicates a fair amount of talent to me. You are already in the top 2% of runners, and are currently running similar workouts and races as me at a similar age. During the few periods of my life when I was seriously training in a coached or team environment, I ran a sub 16 5K and sub 1:20 Half.

The Marathon is a different beast, and throughout my 20+ years of running, I have consistently observed that mileage is King. The only guys that I have ever known below 2:50 were running at least 70 MPW! (For this reason, I've never run one, and never will).

In fact, your training is specifically a standard program of a 38-40 min 10K runner, and it is no surprise that you struggle with the marathon!

So, several key points:

1. Unless you have the time and durability for high mileage, I strongly suggest that you stop obsessing over the marathon! You might consider trying to be come more competitive in the 5K and 10K instead.

2. If you insist on the marathon, you need mileage. You've described that an easy 60 min run feels "long" to you. Even for me (also currently at 35 MPW) that is like nothing more than a walk.

3. Counter-intuitively, you also need more raw speed (as many other posters have suggested). Although this is particularly true if you follow point 1, your running economy for very long distances is also affected by your raw speed. Repeat 200s in 40 sec is a worthless workout for you (do 400s or 600s at that pace instead). But you absolutely should do 4-5 strides (100-200m) a couple of times a week, getting up on your midfoot or toes.

4. As I described above, you've already done great for a self-coached amateur. But if you really want to get better and work towards a specific goal, get a coach and/or join a club.

5. Don't focus on your weight! Make sure that you are eating a good diet, with lots of nutrients for recovery, but your natural/optimal running weight will take care of itself. Particularly if you increase mileage and your raw speed; your body will know exactly how to manage the tradeoff between strength and lightness. (When my running is limited due to injury, I will quickly gain 5-10 pounds of muscle from my regular biweekly weight room sessions. Which then vanishes the moment I get back above 25 MPW.).

Thanks! You're right on all points.

For 1. however, negative! My only time goal is the Marathon. I started running after seeing the finish of 2008 NYCM, and that nostalgy stuck. If I break 3, I will consider myself a real runner and "retire". By retire I mean continue running but maybe not in a time environment. I am sure I could train to break 18 and do it rapidly, or sub 37, or sub 1:20 half, but these just don't matter to me (with all due respect).

For 2. yeah. Agree.

For 3. It seems that some strides or short reps (the R pace workouts for Daniels) make sense at all times to be in tune with your speed. Not regular intervals, faster stuff. I will incorporate more and focus on form, relaxed speed. That's something I lack. For true speed, I think I was in the 12-13" range for 100m when I was in junior high or so, but that's probably not relevant anymore. My body is older!

For 4. I am going to irritate the s**t out of you but I care so much about running that I want it to be "my" journey meaning, self coached and club-less. I don't really know how to explain that. Maybe I am a control freak? Too much ego? Would feel like "cheating" and not be "my" result? You see the point and I am pretty sure this will boggle your mind. If a coach in NYC reads this and think he/she could change my mind, please reach out. I am pretty shy and introverted.

Thank you for taking the time to go over these points. I cant believe how much good information is now in this thread.

(by retire I meant focus on new stuff where standard race times aren't the focus, things like Pikes Peak, NH Road Race, other trails, 50k, maybe even an ultra when I'm old and like to walk a lot! Or maybe then I will care about 5k, and focus on short stuff!)

I am a lifelong runner and can't imagine being without it.

I didn't mean sub 1:20...that's a far cry from sub 18 or 37 sorry! Wrote too quick.

About mileage. One thing that is really helping my running right now is de-emphasizing the long run. I also have the sub 3:00 goal. I had it before, and thought if I just got enough 20 milers in I'd get there. I got lots of 20 milers in, but weekly mileage was low. I didn't get sub 3:00.

This time around, I'm getting my weekly miles up first and going for as low a percentage possible on the long runs. For 50 mpw, the long run is only 12.5miles or 20% of weekly mileage. Total mpw is 62.5. I got the 20% from an old thread here. I might go to 25%, which is considered too much by experts here, but I'm still recreationally running, not an elite runner.

The difference is huge. It feels right doing it this way. Before I absolutely dreaded long runs, and they'd wipe me out for the entire day and the next.

Ironically, making sure to "just get your long runs in and tempos in" is considered a shortcut to the marathon. In my opinion, it's way harder and short sighted. The marathon "programs" however love the cookie cutter long run focus because it does work to "finish" the marathon (but not perform well).

Since when has sub 40 for a 10K been sub elite for a male. There's plenty of high school girls who can run that easily as a tempo.

And if you've never met a runner who could run under 2:50 in the marathon under 70mpw you've never met any talented runners or even borderline D1 talents. There's plenty of guys who can run under 2:30 on less mileage than that. Not saying the OP shouldn't run more but he should neglect your advice because you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

Also disregard this guys point 5 about not worrying about losing weight. Carrying unnecessary extra weight negatively affects any runner whether elite or middle of the pack. I agree the OP definitely has some natural ability. What he's done at his age with his background is solid but if he wants to maximize his running slimming down will be a big part of the equation.

Nice. I know the thread/malmo quote you are referring to and I tend to agree (weekly volume > long run).

Could you share a sample of your week(s) to see the distribution of mileage?

As I stated before, one of the worst thing I did is make all my non-workouts way way easy and short (think 3 miles). I basically never go for a 7-10 miler easy.

In the past I de-emphasized the long run by doing (in peak marathon training) 10 on Sat (trails with last few miles hard) with up to 16 on Sunday all at MP (7:30 at the time).

Last year I did the same except long runs at 7:00 up to 15 miles then got hurt (bad luck: calcium deposit on a hip flexor tendon).

Be nice to that guy he kindly offered some nice help! Don't worry I know the semantic of sub elite isn't right (would be like 33' 10k or so!) but this doesn't matter. Also doesn't matter that some people can run 2:30 on no training. Good for them but not for me!

The weight thing...I need to take care of it. No doubt. I think being stable 10 lbs below will start to help, we'll see after that. I don't see what I have achieved as solid (I basically am surrounded by club runners in races...but they're all girls!). If I were going for AG wins, a sex change would be great. But since I want to remain a male, I need some changes in directions and all advice offered here as been tremendous. You guys are great and I am glad to read from other runners in similar position. I thought everyone here ran 15 min 5k, and wouldn't be able to relate.

Bonus Q: would mileage also take care of cramping in the marathon?

I never hit the wall in any of the 3, felt good, lots of energy...except hamstrings and adductors went into spasm. I did drink, hydrate, eat normally and don't believe the electrolyte theory.

I assume this was just the lack of training, basically trying to run 26.2 without having gone longer than 16 in training?

I have been under the impression that running 16 at MP is better than 20-22 easy, but perhaps I was wrong all along...or maybe one just needs to do both types.

Of course I forgot that this is LetsRun, where age-group winners, who are in the top 2% of all runners, are actually just "Hobby Joggers".

Anyway, about the sub 2:50 marathon - your comment is exactly my point! And the high-end exceptions are useless to the OP. Yes, I have indeed known guys who have run Marathons in the 2:20s on 40 MPW. But to a man they were D1 level talents, who could also run 14:00 5K or 29:30 10K on similar training. This is exceedingly rare!

Among everyone that I've ever been able to train with seriously (and I am seemingly a better "talent" than the OP), 70 MPW is a huge cutoff. When highly fit, I've regularly done workouts like mile repeats and 60 min tempo runs with guys who've run 2:28 - 2:35, but they were also doing 70-90 MPW. Anyone who tried a Marathon at 40-50 MPW only managed 2:50 - 3:30.

outsiderunner wrote:

I would not go too crazy with the weight loss. Yes, 150 is too much for a 5-7 distance runner, but it sounds like 135-140 is just fine for you. I believe that one must take frame size and one's natural tendencies into account. I am naturally thin--have been this way my whiole life. I am an inch shorter than you, 5-6. I go 125-128, depending upon the time of year (and my training) and even the time of day. At the starting line of the marathon, I was probably 123-124 (early morning and on the heels of a 24-week marathon phase).

I want to echo this. At the level you are at, I wouldn't focus on weight. Extra fat will come off naturally when you increase your volume. Focus on eating healthily (hard when you travel a lot, I know). If you are worried about extra muscle, don't do a lot of upper body lifting. Short of starving yourself (which is a very bad idea), there isn't really a way to get rid of extra muscle.

You don't suck. If I had to guess, based on the backround, training and results you've provided, you are probably no less talented than at least 90% of your cohorts. Those guys your age running faster than you either have better training under their belts, or are in the 10% that you may not be. Either way, it sounds like you've got what it takes to break 3hr for the marathon as long as you play your cards right. Good luck!

I will echo your echo and note that during proper training--which is what many here are recomending--I have all to do just to get in enough calories and nutrients. Proper training would be peaking at a minimum of 70 mpw. For my marathon, I peaked at 70 mpw. This, combined with the summer weather, really made it a challenge to maintain my weight.

The hard truth here is that you need to do the mileage...and then add some intensity, too. Those mid-week long-ish runs (12-16 mi) can be challenging at times, but they are indispensable. I have grown to love the long run, and the worst part of being injured is having my long run taken away from me. They are my "medicine."

And, yes, OP, my 3:02 inspires me to break 3:00. Actually, my approximate goal in my first marathon was to qualify for NYC (3:05), but my true goal was 2:59. I had such good coaching and training, plus I am a pretty lean guy, that I went to the line with 2:59 on the brain. At the half mark I felt great, almost as if jogging, and I was 1:29:54 at the half split. In the second half of the race, I did a lot of runnning on my own, and into a headwind. This put a dent in me, even thpugh I had done loads of LT training and general endurance training, too. I had the club lead until about mile 22 (seven club guys racing that day) In any case, my coach says I ran a "near-perfect race" and I am happy with the result. It got me into the field of the greatest race in the world (my coach's favorite), and he will be pacing me at NYC. He has a 2:32 PR.

All the best...

Back in the 80s when everybody but me was running real fast, I had similar times as you @ 5'6" / 125lbs. I logged the miles (50 -60) but was always disappointed in my times. Marathon- 3:16; 10k 37; mile - 4:48. Never got the marathon times I wanted out of 11 marathons. After training a couple of times with 2 coworkers who were Reebok-sponsored, they stated - quite simply - "you need speed work, you should be way faster." I started doing consistent 800 X 10 once a week, plus 10X2 min. once a week, and end-of-workout strikers. My 5k dropped to 16s from 18:27. Those 800s were gut-wrenching but they worked. (I never did marathons again - 3 kids, 5 acres, etc.) Lots of great responses in this thread - but If I were you, I'd would set aside marathons for a bit and focus on my mile time and 5ks - at least for a few months if not more. Great post!

talent = perseverance

don't be disappointed. You don't have the talent. You may love running, but its not your wheelhouse.

There are people who can roll out of bed and complete all of your PRs in the same day. Its not about hard work. Its just genetics. Don't cry over stuff you have no control of.

Just enjoy your running, and the milestones you set and achieve.

mlcollll wrote:

don't be disappointed. You don't have the talent. You may love running, but its not your wheelhouse.

There are people who can roll out of bed and complete all of your PRs in the same day. Its not about hard work. Its just genetics. Don't cry over stuff you have no control of.

Just enjoy your running, and the milestones you set and achieve.

Man I hope you never have to give a motivational or pump up speech.

OP you definitely have some talent whether this guy thinks so or not. Yeah you may not have as much talent as the guys winning major marathons. But even 2 teen marathoners have guys who can wax them any day of the week. The bottom line is the OP can already run faster than 90% + of runners toeing the line and with a more focused running plan can definitely run some very impressive times. There have been a lot of good posts on this thread offering some solid training advice.