Running historians - Can you tell me why / how Katherine Switzer became as or more famous than Bobbi Gibb?

Ho Hum wrote:

Little details in stories are ALWAYS wrong if you dig into them. It's not because people are lying, it's because memory isn't reliable years after the fact.

Duly noted. So her boyfriend (future husband, Tom Miller) was a hammer thrower at Cornell. However Kathrine has often referred to Miller as an All-American football player. Really? Cornell produced no All-Americans in the 30 years prior to Ed Marinaro in 1971. Is that memory failure too, or an example of embellishment?

Change @ Park wrote:

Ho Hum wrote:

Little details in stories are ALWAYS wrong if you dig into them. It's not because people are lying, it's because memory isn't reliable years after the fact.

Duly noted. So her boyfriend (future husband, Tom Miller) was a hammer thrower at Cornell. However Kathrine has often referred to Miller as an All-American football player. Really? Cornell produced no All-Americans in the 30 years prior to Ed Marinaro in 1971. Is that memory failure too, or an example of embellishment?

I was replying to you ripping into her account of which mile the incident occurred at. Why did you ignore that and go back to the hammer thing?

I have no idea if she's referred to him as an All American, but that's also not an important detail.

Get your facts straight wrote:

Any Which Way But Loose wrote:

Actually, even more reasons...

Switzer actually ENTERED the race. She had a numbered bib and was an official starter and finisher.

Gibb jumped in and ran with no entry.

Switzer ran in 67 with a "borrowed" males runner number and finished one hour behind Gibbs. She was not official, she actually cheated.

Gracious,hmm, Katherine is grandstanding opportunist that took advantage of a situation that nobody bothered to correct. Her goal in life is to make money off the falsehood that she was the 1st. She owes a public apology to Gibb.

But,

LRC is always hostile towards cheaters, course cutters, runners who take the easy way.

Well,

Gibb took the easy way. Just bandit the race. We don't know where she started, where she finished(if she finished), just her word saying that she did it.

It's not that I don't believe her, but we have burned people here for less.

Ho Hum wrote:

Change @ Park wrote:

Duly noted. So her boyfriend (future husband, Tom Miller) was a hammer thrower at Cornell. However Kathrine has often referred to Miller as an All-American football player. Really? Cornell produced no All-Americans in the 30 years prior to Ed Marinaro in 1971. Is that memory failure too, or an example of embellishment?

I was replying to you ripping into her account of which mile the incident occurred at. Why did you ignore that and go back to the hammer thing?

I have no idea if she's referred to him as an All American, but that's also not an important detail.

You pass these things off as benign. That's fine. I know Katherine, and have had conversations with her several times through the years at the Boston Marathon. Please know that I am not "ripping into" her. I am simply puzzled about a pattern of factual discrepancies that seem to recur in her accountings. There are quite a few others beyond the ones I've already mentioned. As for Tom Miller, here is what she writes on her website --

"Two weeks later, my boyfriend, a 235-pound ex–All American football player and nationally ranked hammer thrower known as Big Tom Miller, announced that he was going to run Boston, too, and didn’t need to train because “if a girl can run a marathon, I can run a marathon.”

source -

Get your facts straight wrote:

Any Which Way But Loose wrote:

Actually, even more reasons...

Switzer actually ENTERED the race. She had a numbered bib and was an official starter and finisher.

Gibb jumped in and ran with no entry.

Switzer ran in 67 with a "borrowed" males runner number and finished one hour behind Gibbs. She was not official, she actually cheated.

Gracious,hmm, Katherine is grandstanding opportunist that took advantage of a situation that nobody bothered to correct. Her goal in life is to make money off the falsehood that she was the 1st. She owes a public apology to Gibb.

There's alway a dick in every thread. Always.

We don't know where Bobbi Gibb started, true.

Many men saw her early in the race, ran near her most of the way, attested to that fact after the race. I talked to three or four of them in a long article in the new issue of RW (Neely Spence Gracey and dog on cover).

Her time was noted by officials at the finish, and is listed on timing sheets in BAA files. She might have been unofficial, or bandit, or whatever anyone wants to call it, but newspapers were highly interested, and dug out all available info.

She "won" Boston three years in a row with times in 3:20 to 3:30 range.

In 1982, at age 39, she ran 3:19:48 in the NYC Marathon,

http://web2.nyrrc.org/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/38497.1.086041252715127233

Gibb can run. Don't doubt it.

Amby is right about Gibb's talent. Something that is not in my Boston book, (used copies can be had on Amazon) that I ran with her when she was in her 50's in Dog Town woods in the middle of Cape Ann. I have run side by side with many of the best runners in the world from Amby to Joan, to Alberto, to Billy, Mary Decker, Shorter, Patti, and Gibb had all the spring and and athleticism that is common to such excellent runners. Had there been an Olympics and had she been inclined she would have been world class. I have no doubt. Also Joan would not have won the Olympic Gold in 1984 if there hadn't been an Olympic Marathon—something that Bobbi Gibb, Kathrine Switzer and all the women pioneers that Amby writes about made possible. That's why you should go buy Amby's book and read every word.

Tom

(Then next be sure to go see the Boston Marathon Documentary that I am executive producing to premiere at Boston 2017 to see how we handle this history.)

For what it's worth, the AAU, in all its wisdom, did indeed not think it healthy for women (you know those delicate flowers with their ineffable reproductive systems) to run as far as a marathon without it doing them harm, hence even in the late 60s, it was 800 meters, max, for them.

and ol' Jock Semple did want anyone of anything mucking up "HIS" race. Mind you, it was still a relatively small event, couple of hundred definitely under 1k runners, no sponsorships, and the only media was the "press truck" flatbed hauling around the then, booze-addled Boston print media, most of whom only covered "running" once a year and always went for the easy story, some wacky guy, for example, who got to the start late and had to run in street clothes and wingtips.

I had to buy one of those AAU cards as a teen, just to enter a few summer track meets or road races, and as proven by Pre and a few other courageous athletes, they never did a gawdamn thing for anyone but themselves.

I once worked w/someone who went to high school you. She referred to you as Ambrose when we talked about you and Mr Kelley.

Thanks for adding your thoughtful insights to this thread. I am glad Rojo put it out there as the historical relevance is not understood even by adults his age. I hadn't considered that. My mother who was "no women's libber" thought Switzer deserved big praise and cursed Jock. It is incredible to see the number of women entered this year and in races every weekend around the country.

I also am looking forward to Tom D's documentary. My copy of his book still sits in my night table drawer. I'll pull it out this weekend to re-read his reporting.

I pen-palled with Katherine for about a year when I was fourteen or fifteen. This was around 1972 when she was still living in Syracuse. She could not have been more gracious or inspirational.

So in sum, in answer to the original question is it's all about the photo with Semple.

rojo wrote:

Gibb's had already shown the year before a woman could do it.

What about Violet Piercy, Merry Lepper, Arlene Pieper? Didn't they already prove this?

The answer to the subject line is the photos and their significance in changing the rules.

Add Lyn Carman to the list. I believe that in 963 She was pulled from the course in the Culver City marathon and that in 1966 she became the 3rd American woman to finish a marathon by completing the Santa Barbara Marathon.

I thought Marathon Woman was a good read. As Switzer relates, Arnie Briggs claimed that women could not run distance. At which point Switzer said that Gibb had run Boston, and Briggs swore it never happened. I guess Briggs bought the theory that Gibb jumped in late. Either way, Gibb was big news in 1966.

To the fact checkers: The press truck went by twice. The first time, the photographers noticed Switzer, and the press began razzing Semple about there being a woman in his race. The second time is when Semple jumped off and tried to evict Switzer. As for Miller being All-American or not? I have no idea. But, when they were married he was a grad student. Perhaps he played football for a different school? BTW, Miller did finish Boston, without having trained for it. Superman, indeed.

Orville: Lyn wasn't pulled from Culver City in 1963; she dropped out. Merry Lepper fully expected Lyn to beat her in that race, but when Lyn stopped, Merry kept going and finished in 3:37:07.

I personally count Lepper as the first American woman to "run" a marathon.

Lyn Carman ran 3:57:51 in Oct. 1966--after Gibb at Boston, before Switzer in 1967.

Arlene Pieper completed the Pike's Peak Marathon in August, 1959, in 9:16. I don't count that as "running" a marathon, but it can be counted however people want to count it.

In the mid-1960s, surprising numbers of women from Alaska completed the Fairbanks Marathon each year in times of 4+ or 5+ or 6+ hours,

http://www.arrs.net/MaraRank/ATM_Mara1966.htm

(go to bottom of the page)

Once we go outside the U.S. and back in time, historical records get dicier. Did Stamata Revithi and/or Melpomene run a marathon in Athens in 1896? Beats me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stamata_Revithi

I have mixed feelings about incident at the 1967 Boston Marathon. Without it I believe the issue would have flown under the radar a bit longer, but was it the right thing for Switzer to enter without some form of protest prior to signing up?

Try to keep in mind that Katherine Switzer did not attempt in any way to challenge BAA's rules for entry prior to the 1967 Boston Marathon. When she registered she intentionally deceived the BAA to get a number. Bobbi Gibb had already proved that a woman could cover the distance.

After Boston that year Switzer certainly made her mark for women in athletics in a proper manner and might not have had a voice had that the incident with Semple not taken place.

So I have to ask, does the end justify the means. In my opinion for this case I think it does but we have to have a better understanding of the Boston Marathon as an event.

In the end I think what happened was positive and needed to happen for the advancement for women in our sport but I don't fault Jock Semple in any way other than the physical manner in which he attempted to enforce the rules. I think it's important to think about Boston's history and what was going on at the time. The race had always officially been an all male event since 1892. It's a little too easy to look back now and throw Semple under the bus. On a side note Semple from what I have read eventually made peace with Switzer.

It's ridiculous to think that women can not run the Marathon distance safely from our perspective and what we know now but back before 1960 most doctors would have said that women could not handle it. Again, you have to make an attempt and think about the time period they were in. Of course they were wrong but they didn't know it.

Great story...Thank you!!!

Mrs. Switzer never had kids. I'd say that proves that Jock Semple was right.

“violent movements of the body can cause a shift in the position and a loosening of the uterus as well as prolapse and bleeding, with resulting sterility, thus defeating a woman’s true purpose in life, i.e., the bringing forth of strong children.” German Doctor 1898

otter wrote:

Try to keep in mind that Katherine Switzer did not attempt in any way to challenge BAA's rules for entry prior to the 1967 Boston Marathon. When she registered she intentionally deceived the BAA to get a number.

ALL U.S. road races were open to men only in accordance with prevailing AAU rules at the time -- the gender barrier was not unique to the Boston Marathon.