Why should I think Boris Berian is clean?

coach d wrote:

HRE wrote:

You cannot "support" someone's cleanliness. As of now the only reason you seem to have is that he made a big improvement. Turn this around. What information would "convince" you that he's clean?

Why is Berian any different from Amel Tuka who went from 1:46 to 1:42 in one year and widely suspected of doping? Because he's American? Grounds for suspicion are the same.

Why are the grounds for suspicion the same?

there is lot of variation on boris's physical stats but i'll use this for height :

http://www.tilastopaja.org/jukka/db/uusiat/at2.php?Sex=1&ID=123782

that 5'11 but weight looks lot more than 160, probably more like 165 as he is a beast of a powerhouse

now, i don't think all this muscle is useful for 800 ( certainly maybe for 400 )

i think currently he coud run a 1'43-flat outdoors solo at his current weight of 160 or 165

i've seen enough specimens to realise he looks like he coud shed a few pounds of muscle with controlled dieting/weight-training without any loss of propulsive leg force ( meaning losing muscle more from upper body )

the physics of this imply :

assuming current solo outdoor shape in a perfect split race of 1'43.00 :

if weighing 165 & carefully boils down to 160, his expected improvement is

~ 1.43.00 * ( 160 / 165 )^(1/3 ) = 1'41.95 !!!

if weighing 160 & carefully boils down to 155, his expected improvement is

~ 1.43.00 * ( 155 / 160 )^(1/3 ) = 1'41.92 !!!

thankfully, the physics show virtual same improvement if he loses 5lb from current weight of either 160 or 165

if he gets some good physiology/nutritionist/weight-training input & loses a few pounds carefully & gradually, i expect to see him improve by at least 1s from his current shape

he has prospect of breaking 1'42 this summer - solo !!!

What do we know about Boris's coach? This is the big question

he looks a bit like hes dabbling in the hot sauce,and that he walked straight out of a laboratory........but that doesnt mean he IS.....it could be that he works hard,trains hard,and runs hard.

1:41, you say? I would have thought 1:38 at least, what about the drafting...?

Exactly and that's before yoju even start on out and out sprinters who have no chance

Take my word, I'm as skeptical as anyone when it comes to athletes performances in the sport, but Berian hasn't done anything insane like run a 1:41.

The guy is a talent. In HS at the state meet in Colorado at altitude he took out the 800m solo with a 51 first lap. Think about that. A) To attempt to do that takes a specific mentality and B) the fact that he hung on despite a brutal last lap shows the guy is pretty tough and can suffer.

His times are not earth shattering. Yes he won the 800m Indoor World title, but guys can run as fast as he has. And his 1:43 was a 1:43.84. So he basically knocked off just over four seconds from his freshman year in college when he ran 1:48 and won the D2 national title to now.

The guy always had the talent, just needed some consistency and opportunities. There is nothing crazy about what he has done if you saw him run in high school in 2011. And as someone pointed out there is A LOT of improvement to be had in the 800m when someone applies natural speed to doing the distance work, the threshold work, the Vo2 work, etc. That's where most "speed" guys fall short or breakdown. Pretty simple really.

You have no idea what you're talking about. IF you were intelligent, you'd simply say that you don't know. Instead you write bs that means NOTHING in terms of whether he is clean or not.

HRE wrote:

You cannot "support" someone's cleanliness. As of now the only reason you seem to have is that he made a big improvement. Turn this around. What information would "convince" you that he's clean?

The doubters are ignoring this post and question for obvious reasons.

Clerk wrote:

Do you know that for sure, or is it speculation? That's the kind of information that would only help, and an example why the Ryan Hill thread is 8 replies long and this is 40+: we know his history.

Actually, a lot has been said about Berian's history. How closely should we have been monitoring the self-training of a 1:48 guy who had left his college program?

For the year of his breakthrough and subsequently, we actually know a lot. Big Bear is more transparent than many groups (like Hill's for example), with many workouts on FloTrack and posted online. Do you remember the 46/47 2x400? For the years he was working at McDonald's and self-training, what do you want to know? Honestly, ask him (or if you don't want to be a dick, ask Handler). Frankly, a guy who runs 46 in HS could play beer league soccer for three years and still be a diamond at 22. Even hobbyjogging would have brought his base along.

The problem with your logic is anything he amazing that Berian did before 2015, like haphazard training or a 1:48 race, shows how far he has come and is therefore damning. Anything he has done recently, like exceptionally hard training (46/47) or a 1:43 race, shows how far he has come and is therefore damning. Do you see how that works? Do you see the problem with that thinking? A scanned log from Carlos Handler would not satisfy you.

Thanks. Proving my point from above^

He was working at McDonalds; his pure hate was deeper than the field, hence victory. Plus, some people respond well to training and living at elevation and racing low.

Bad Wigins wrote:

Clerk wrote:

High school kids can go sub 47, but none go under 1:44.

They can't even go under 1:46, and IIRC only Kersh ever went under 1:47.

Sub 47 is an ordinary competitive, scholastic 400. Sub 1:44 is Diamond League world elite. Not even close.

Someone who runs 1:43 should - but not always, e.g. Symmonds - be able to run sub 47, but the converse is definitely false.

Well think about this...Kiprop could probably run no faster than 47 (and 47 might even be generous to him), yet he's run low 1:43s multiple times and still blasts 3:26 for the 1500. I saw a video of Kiprop running like 48 a few years ago in Kenya (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvwP8oCmq6I)...this was the year he ran his 800 PR of 1:43.1

Same with Souleiman - he's a 1:42/3:29 guy that can also run 13:17 for 5k, but I highly doubt he has the raw speed to run a 46 open 400. Same for a guy like Lewandowski, who's more of an 800/1500 guy.

ijenns318 wrote:

Well think about this...Kiprop could probably run no faster than 47 (and 47 might even be generous to him), yet he's run low 1:43s multiple times and still blasts 3:26 for the 1500. I saw a video of Kiprop running like 48 a few years ago in Kenya (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvwP8oCmq6I)...this was the year he ran his 800 PR of 1:43.1

That dirt track --> 0.3s

6'3" guy running in lane 1 --> 0.3s

Asbel = 47 guy

must be aliens wrote:

I beat my college 5k PR by over 30 seconds as a 25 year old post collegiate. Was I doping? Same margin of improvement.

If you went from 13:35 to 13:05 in your first race back after 3 years, I would be suspicious.

I would be less suspicious if Berian went went from 1:55 to 1:50, or from 1:48 to 1:46, even with the 3 year gap. But many 800m specialists have their whole career and haven't cracked 1:44. Boris did it with more than just ease- he did it with a three year gap, the opposite of what should lead to better performances.

I would like to congratulate Berian on his gold medal. From McDonald's to an entire thread dedicated to the subject of whether or not he used performance enhancing drugs. Congratulations, Berian, you have arrived! Now you just need a sponsor.

ventolin^3 wrote:

~ 1.43.00 * ( 155 / 160 )^(1/3 ) = 1'41.92 !!!

Where does the cube root come from?

I'm not sure where your "too slow to dope" idea come from. Look at some of the Kenyan dopers: 71:12 female half marathoner, 63:45 male half marathoner (2:22 marathon), a 76:12 female half marathoner... Then there's the story of Andrew Carnes, the 67 minute American half marathoner busted with doping.

Further, this idea that a 400m runner can just "move up" and run world class 800m times has already been debunked on this thread. So far, besides Berian (who made the jump after a 3 year gap and in his first race back) the thread has no examples of sub 47 HS runners going on to run world class 800m times. Juantorena was a 800/1500 guy in HS. After a lot of digging, I found one result from Rudisha in 2005:

400m

1: Adam. E. Adam, Sudan, 47.9

2: David Rudisha, 48.2

3: Maenelbin Ibrahim, Sudan, 48.9

(Dirt track by the looks of it. Sheikh Abeid Karume Stadium in Arusha, Tanzania)

The kind of body that is naturally disposed to run fast (sub 47, for example) hasn't shown to be the kind of body that can transition to the 800m successfully. Except in Berian. Who did it in his first race after a three year gap... If you have examples, please share (again, that's not snarkiness. I would like to know)

I should correct myself. I kept saying 1:43 was his first race back, and am wrong.I see a 1:45 at Peyton Jordan and a 1:46 at ASU before his 1:43