"Middle Zone" feels uncomfortable

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  • ThatFeltWeird
    3 years ago 03/10/2016 8:03pm CST
    Forum Index
    Whenever I run tempos or cruise intervals, I feel good. I feel strong and in control.

    Whenever I run 200s @ 400-800m pace, I feel in control, I feel strong, and fast.

    Whenever I run 3k-5k intervals, I feel like garbage. I'm not sure what it is. It feels uncomfortable and my form feels completely different. It also feels like I'm using a completely different muscle group. My coach says I look smooth and my form looks fine.

    Has anyone else experienced this? How would I go about solving this? My main events are 5k and 10k. I understand there needs to be some uncomfortableness, but it just doesn't feel quite right.
  • Moses Ngugi
    3 years ago 03/11/2016 12:59am CST
    re: ThatFeltWeird
    Forum Index
    It always feels to me that there are four zones in running, in order:-
    - The easy zone
    - The harder than you think zone
    - The easier than you think zone
    - The hard zone
    Mostly psychological I guess, expectation against reality.
  • it's called relaxation
    3 years ago 03/11/2016 1:05am CST
    re: ThatFeltWeird
    Forum Index
    Run a tad slower. Start out at your normal pace, but slow slightly down until you find a good rhythm. Your pace will automatically speed up after a couple of sessions like this.
  • sub-elite couch
    3 years ago 03/13/2016 11:27am CDT
    re: it's called relaxation
    Forum Index
    it's called relaxation

    No, it is called velocity at VO2MAX.

    It is uncomfortable because it is at the maximum of an energy system, which 200s at 800 pace are not. Which a tempo run at hour pace isn't.

    When you hit the Lydiard "critical volume" of 100 mpw this discomfort will change.
  • Bob Schul Country
    3 years ago 03/13/2016 12:36pm CDT
    re: ThatFeltWeird
    Forum Index
    A couple things at play here:

    1. you are old and dont recover well
    2. you have something wrong with ferritin or iron levels
    3. you havent spent enough time building a base of miles
    4. you arent mentally tough
  • theJeff
    registered
    3 years ago 03/13/2016 1:47pm CDT
    re: ThatFeltWeird
    Forum Index
    ThatFeltWeird wrote:

    Whenever I run tempos or cruise intervals, I feel good. I feel strong and in control.

    Whenever I run 200s @ 400-800m pace, I feel in control, I feel strong, and fast.

    Whenever I run 3k-5k intervals, I feel like garbage. I'm not sure what it is. It feels uncomfortable and my form feels completely different. It also feels like I'm using a completely different muscle group. My coach says I look smooth and my form looks fine.

    Has anyone else experienced this? How would I go about solving this? My main events are 5k and 10k. I understand there needs to be some uncomfortableness, but it just doesn't feel quite right.

    Are you doing a Daniels' plan? Fwiw, I had the same experience: Felt strong on my Rep and Tempo paces, but not sure I ever made it thru an Interval workout while hitting all of my splits...
  • anecdotal, but real
    3 years ago 03/13/2016 2:47pm CDT
    re: thejeff
    Forum Index
    This is the VO2Max zone and for many runners this pace is at best useless and at worst damaging. Lydiard pretty much ignored it.
  • jman1
    3 years ago 03/13/2016 3:02pm CDT
    re: ThatFeltWeird
    Forum Index
    I've experienced this too and recently mentioned it to my coach. What are you current race times (not PRs)? I would like to see if there are gaps in your relative performances.
  • theJeff
    registered
    3 years ago 03/13/2016 4:27pm CDT
    re: anecdotal, but real
    Forum Index
    anecdotal, but real wrote:

    This is the VO2Max zone and for many runners this pace is at best useless and at worst damaging. Lydiard pretty much ignored it.

    Really? I am trying to look up some info supporting that training at VO2 Max is neutral/bad for you, but I haven't found anything yet. Can you shoot me a link/article/research etc? (Serious question) :-)
  • a dog
    registered
    3 years ago 03/13/2016 4:34pm CDT
    re: ThatFeltWeird
    Forum Index
    Run the repeats slower, between HM and 8k pace instead of 5k. If it feels "too easy" or you don't think you're getting enough of a workout raise the quantity and/or chop the rest.
  • jerrry
    registered
    3 years ago 03/13/2016 5:16pm CDT
    re: ThatFeltWeird
    Forum Index
    your brain is the best indicator of what pace you should run and your brain is telling you one pace but the workout calculators are telling you to run a different pace. Guess which one is right? You are. Go with your own brain and run the pace the works.

    Sometimes your form changes as well (you may be dropping back on your heels more when you run this in between distance)....partly because you can't hold the form you want to run and partly because the pace is a slower than your normal mid-foot stike...you probably should just shorten the interval to a distance where you can hold your form and work from there.
  • smarten up
    3 years ago 03/13/2016 5:25pm CDT
    re: anecdotal, but real
    Forum Index
    anecdotal, but real wrote:

    This is the VO2Max zone and for many runners this pace is at best useless and at worst damaging. Lydiard pretty much ignored it.


    Lydiard actually said "5k pace is golden."
  • step it up
    3 years ago 03/13/2016 5:27pm CDT
    re: jerrry
    Forum Index
    jerrry wrote:

    your brain is the best indicator of what pace you should run and your brain is telling you one pace but the workout calculators are telling you to run a different pace. Guess which one is right? You are. Go with your own brain and run the pace the works.

    This is basically a recipe to be a WUSS.
  • tighten up
    3 years ago 03/13/2016 6:48pm CDT
    re: smarten up
    Forum Index
    smarten up wrote:

    anecdotal, but real wrote:

    This is the VO2Max zone and for many runners this pace is at best useless and at worst damaging. Lydiard pretty much ignored it.


    Lydiard actually said "5k pace is golden."


    That is usually attributed to Peter Coe.
  • oheo
    registered
    3 years ago 03/13/2016 11:55pm CDT
    re: ThatFeltWeird
    Forum Index
    Similar feeling in most of my 3k-5k pace workouts. Best solution is to start around 10k pace and negative split the workout.
    Also, from a buildup standpoint, beginning your v02max work with shorter reps like 400s could help.
    Or, consider a multi pace work. Something like, Miles at T, 1000s at 10k, 600s at 5k-3k.
  • well,.
    3 years ago 03/14/2016 12:28am CDT
    re: anecdotal, but real
    Forum Index
    anecdotal, but real wrote:

    This is the VO2Max zone and for many runners this pace is at best useless and at worst damaging. Lydiard pretty much ignored it.

    BS. Look at the programs in his books. Lots of workouts like 3x1600 with a long jog rest. Classic "Vo2max training".
  • TLOP
    3 years ago 03/14/2016 1:00am CDT
    re: ThatFeltWeird
    Forum Index
    ThatFeltWeird wrote:

    Whenever I run tempos or cruise intervals, I feel good. I feel strong and in control.

    Whenever I run 200s @ 400-800m pace, I feel in control, I feel strong, and fast.

    Whenever I run 3k-5k intervals, I feel like garbage. I'm not sure what it is. It feels uncomfortable and my form feels completely different. It also feels like I'm using a completely different muscle group. My coach says I look smooth and my form looks fine.

    Has anyone else experienced this? How would I go about solving this? My main events are 5k and 10k. I understand there needs to be some uncomfortableness, but it just doesn't feel quite right.

    Story of my running career. I'm an older guy who ran all my PRs well out of college. My midD PRs (1:57 and 4:19) and longD PRs (31:19 and 1:08) are quite a bit better than my 5K (15:10). Never felt comfortable running at 5K pace, though I raced it sparingly.

    The thing that DID NOT help was running more 5K pace in training. It just left me trashed and overtrained.

    If I could redo things, I would get in the best possible 10K/HM shape possible with the tempos and long runs, but just slowly layer on the 800/mile pace gradually. Then I would race my way into 5K-specific shape, using 3-4 consecutive 5K races over 1-2 months as the "specific training" (and avoiding that pace in practice as it just drained me).
  • Opiate for the Masses
    3 years ago 03/14/2016 7:35am CDT
    re: TLOP
    Forum Index
    TLOP wrote:

    ThatFeltWeird wrote:

    Whenever I run tempos or cruise intervals, I feel good. I feel strong and in control.

    Whenever I run 200s @ 400-800m pace, I feel in control, I feel strong, and fast.

    Whenever I run 3k-5k intervals, I feel like garbage. I'm not sure what it is. It feels uncomfortable and my form feels completely different. It also feels like I'm using a completely different muscle group. My coach says I look smooth and my form looks fine.

    Has anyone else experienced this? How would I go about solving this? My main events are 5k and 10k. I understand there needs to be some uncomfortableness, but it just doesn't feel quite right.

    Story of my running career. I'm an older guy who ran all my PRs well out of college. My midD PRs (1:57 and 4:19) and longD PRs (31:19 and 1:08) are quite a bit better than my 5K (15:10). Never felt comfortable running at 5K pace, though I raced it sparingly.

    The thing that DID NOT help was running more 5K pace in training. It just left me trashed and overtrained.

    If I could redo things, I would get in the best possible 10K/HM shape possible with the tempos and long runs, but just slowly layer on the 800/mile pace gradually. Then I would race my way into 5K-specific shape, using 3-4 consecutive 5K races over 1-2 months as the "specific training" (and avoiding that pace in practice as it just drained me).


    ^^This. People without much natural VO2 max get trashed on even seemingly easy 3k-5k paced workouts. You're better off building your high-end aerobic endurance as much as possible with tempos and 10k pace intervals with a bit of short speed work at mile pace at the end of a workout.
  • rjt
    3 years ago 03/14/2016 7:47am CDT
    re: Opiate for the Masses
    Forum Index
    I echo the above. Any good coach will know his athletes and which of those should avoid excessive VO2 intervals. Tinman's CV sessions are an excellent alternative:

    http://www.championshipproductions.com/files/xc-02010/Stiles-Critical-Velocity-Article.pdf
  • letsbe honest
    3 years ago 03/14/2016 8:35am CDT
    re: oheo
    Forum Index
    oheo wrote:

    Similar feeling in most of my 3k-5k pace workouts. Best solution is to start around 10k pace and negative split the workout.
    Also, from a buildup standpoint, beginning your v02max work with shorter reps like 400s could help.
    Or, consider a multi pace work. Something like, Miles at T, 1000s at 10k, 600s at 5k-3k.

    All of this is fine, but you need to get up to longer intervals at VO2max.

    Starting slower is fine. Starting shorter is fine. But you need to go further.

    10k pace won't do it. 600s certainly won't do it.