to fill out out Alaska's top 7 i'll add 2 for now, might switch it up
6. Ty Jordan : 4:15 1600, 15:38 XC 5k on muddy course , same course that Dunbar and Thomet ran ~15:10 at their best, 50.6 400m so has closing speed
7. Laird Prosser - 4:15 1600 as HS soph, 3:46 1500 as freshman in college, challenged gomez consistently on the track
Jayhawk wrote:
Kansas
Boys
1. Jim Ryun
2. Brent Steiner
3. Steve Fein
4. Billy Mills
5. Lane Boyer
6. Kevin Newkirk
7. Chris Williams
Girls
1. Amy Mortimer
2. Amanda Pape
3. Trisha Nicoley
4. Alyson Deckert
5. Jill Woods
6. Amy Hastings
7. Laura Roxberg
Perhaps add Tim Gundy.
Iowa
Phil Coppess (2:10 marathoner, Chicago Marathon winner)
Mark Johnson (former U of Wisconsin 10k record holder, 4 time state champion in cross country)
Matt Gabrielson (13:30 5k, 2:13 marathon)
Josh Moen (13:35 5k, 1:02 half marathon)
Kiel Uhl (10,000 meter All-American at Iowa State)
Thomas Pollard (In high school, 8:50 3200, 4:06 1600, two time Footlocker finalist)
Kevin Lewis (13:43 5k while at U of Iowa)
You need to update the Mass. team, remove Quigley and replace him with Art Dulong. Remove McArdle and replace him with Dan Moynihan.
Iowa women
Lisa Uhl (multiple time NCAA champion in 3k, 5k, and 10k, best times of 14:55 for 5k, 31:12 for 10k)
Shelby Houlihan (nine time All-American in cross country and track, NCAA 1500 champion, 4:09 1500 and 2:01 800 personal bests, over 10 state titles in high school)
Katie Flood (Twice in the top 10 at Footlocker, NCAA 1500 champion, 4:11 1500 and 8:55 3000 while in college, over 10 state titles)
Michelle Lilienthal (Around 10 state titles, top 10 at Footlocker, two time marathon trials qualifier)
Stephanie Jenks (About 10 state titles in first three years, three time Footlocker finalist, state record holder in 3000 and 1500)
Missy Buttry (Around 10 national titles in D-3 while at Wartburg, 15:35 personal best at 5000)
Erin Moeller- Three times Olympic trials marathon qualifier
Robyn Friedman- Three times Olympic trials marathon qualifier
I think they may be the best looking team on top of it.
Maine men (with most impressive bests):
1. Bruce Bickford- this guy was an 80's superstud on the New England Running circuit, easily the best Maine runner of all time.
Mile: 4:01.8, 8th ME all time
3000: 7:48.4 , 4th
5k: 13:13.49, 2nd behind Ben motherloving True
10k: 27:37.17, 1st
Half: 1:06:33, 10th
2. Ben True (10K: 27:41.17)
3. Riley Masters (5K: 13:17.97)
4. Matt McClintock (10K: 28:54.77)
5. Will Geohegan- (5k: 13:17.85)
6. Louie Luchini (28:26.61)
7. Matt Lane (10K: 28:00.01)
Maine women:
1. No one will read this so I'm not gonna bother
Other states need to step it up. We have like 10 people up here and we're still better than your pansy asses.
The Blackest Bear wrote:
Maine men (with most impressive bests):
1. Bruce Bickford- this guy was an 80's superstud on the New England Running circuit, easily the best Maine runner of all time.
Mile: 4:01.8, 8th ME all time
3000: 7:48.4 , 4th
5k: 13:13.49, 2nd behind Ben motherloving True
10k: 27:37.17, 1st
Half: 1:06:33, 10th
2. Ben True (10K: 27:41.17)
3. Riley Masters (5K: 13:17.97)
4. Matt McClintock (10K: 28:54.77)
5. Will Geohegan- (5k: 13:17.85)
6. Louie Luchini (28:26.61)
7. Matt Lane (10K: 28:00.01)
Maine women:
1. No one will read this so I'm not gonna bother
Other states need to step it up. We have like 10 people up here and we're still better than your pansy asses.
damn those HS times are impressive
in all seriousness we should try to get the HS best marks so we score a hypothetical meet. I realize career best times are useful sometimes to show potential if the runner was never challenged in HS, but their HS marks should be the key factor here.
Ben True is the best Maine runner. Pretty hard to argue otherwise at this point. With a 13:01, 6th at World Cross (that is what we're talking about, right), and better PR's at all but 10k ...
Also, Riley Masters is a very good runner, but for HS XC, he doesn't compare to the rest of that group. He wasn't even a state champion. I'd put Dan Curts, Ethan Shaw, Eric Giddings, Brian Pettingill, Scott Roberts, or Todd Hews over him.
Bruce Bickford was ranked #1 in the world at 10k. Ben True is 2nd to him. Can't compare pr's over different eras.
Races these days are just time trials, everyone runs for a PR, not a win.
French Dawg wrote:
California
German Fernandez
Jeff Nelson
Marc Davis
Rich Kimball
Bryan Dameworth
Ammar Moussa
Mitch Kingery
Not sure on Kingery, but he ran 2:23 for the marathon in HS and he still holds the Crystal Springs course record.
I'm in HS right now so I'm going to only consider their HS accolades.
1. German Fernandez
2. Marc Davis
3. Eric Hulst
4. Jeff Nelson
5. Louis Quintana
6. Eric Reynolds
7. Ralph Serna
Alternates for CIF 9: Chad Hall, Scott Fry
I am well aware of BB's credentials. He was a tremendous runner. He was ranked #1 in the world in a year in which no major 10k's were contested. Ben True was 6th in the world in the most competitive race there is, world cross. And, since we're talking about cross, it's more than relevant, and far more important than actual PR's. He was also 5th at Footlocker and a two time NE runner up in XC.
You were the one who wanted to list where BB was ranked in all his events. That's fine, but when I put those rankings in your face, you can't wish they didn't matter.
Have you ever watched Ben True race? I'm not sure there is a guy who more defines racing for wins, not PRs.
Steve on a cell in Brooklyn wrote:
state of mind wrote:Josh McDougal, of course. When I tossed out the list a couple of days ago, I was expecting I might have missed someone. Thanks for being the first to mention the obvious.
As for the rest, I brought up Gruenewald myself for the "second seven" but I'm not willing to kick anyone out of the top seven for him. The VCP course has changed.
Also consider that I could not find room for John Tuttle, an Olympian, Penn Relays, and multi-time state track champ from the '70s. I would put him ahead of everyone you have named except McDougal,
But, as for Lomong, if did anything significant in HS xc (I'm not aware) please advise.
Lopez won a State Federation championship. Question with all of these names in all states is what is the basis. Is it their HS careers or what happened afterwards. In NYS, a HS career brings a two time winner such as Dalpiaz into the mix over guys such as Tuttle, who won a sectional but had a much better post HS career.
Odis Sanders is another name from the past who should be considered.
The original poster stated that he'd like to see it based primarily on their results while in HS. Whenever these types of things come up, I always take a very strict interpretation of the question, so in this particular case, I would personally base it solely on high school XC performances/results.
With that said, the second thing that comes into play is how do you evaluate these guys? Do you rate them based on say one year of brilliance over maybe 2-3 years of top tier running, but maybe not quite reaching the same heights at their peak?
I give the following as an example for NY: Kevin Hogan's name hasn't been mentioned yet. He had three great XC years from 1988-1990 (Soph-Senior XC seasons). He was running right at that point at the tail end of the first golden age of HS running that gave way to the dark ages of the 1990s, So, some could argue that his competition wasn't quite as good as others before him or during the last decade or so. He has relatively modest VCP PRs (pre-resurfacing) of 12:46.7 and 15:44.8 (the 5k was as a soph). However, when you look at his accomplishments, he stands out as one of probably the top 5 all-time in NY if you choose to look at his total HS career. He won States and Feds in his junior and senior seasons. As a soph, he took 2nd at States and 3rd at Feds. At the Kinney NE Regional he placed 10th as a soph and qualified for nationals his final two seasons where he took 10th and 5th out in San Diego. He's the first guy under 16 at Bowdoin (15:59 and then 15:51 at Feds) and was also under 16 twice at Sunken Meadow, with a PR of 15:53.8.
For me, Trautmann and Gregorek are #1 and #2...beyond that, I think you could probably make a case for about 20 or so guys for those remaining 5 spots, including other guys not mentioned yet, like 1960s greats Pete Randall, Dave Pottetti and Gary Connor.
fdasfadf wrote:
Iowa
Phil Coppess (2:10 marathoner, Chicago Marathon winner)
Mark Johnson (former U of Wisconsin 10k record holder, 4 time state champion in cross country)
Matt Gabrielson (13:30 5k, 2:13 marathon)
Josh Moen (13:35 5k, 1:02 half marathon)
Kiel Uhl (10,000 meter All-American at Iowa State)
Thomas Pollard (In high school, 8:50 3200, 4:06 1600, two time Footlocker finalist)
Kevin Lewis (13:43 5k while at U of Iowa)
The OP stated high school creds, all but Pollard are listed as college/pro. Coppess was like a 4:21 miler in high school.
From the mid-70s
Randy Jackson - 3rd behind Salazar and Froelick at AAU XC, or whatever it was. 9:00 2 mile (8:56-57 3200)
Ed Delashmutt - triple crown mile champ (IPI, Golden West, and another on the east coast); effectively national track champ. ca. 4:05.
Jon Mathiason - 9:02 2 mile (8:58-59 3200)
David Korir - 1:49 or 1:50 in high school and went onto mid-d stardom at ISU
Billy Mills was born in South Dakota but ran high school cross country in Kansas.
I like that and given Tim's post high school success compared to Chris Williams or even Kevin Newkirk I can buy it. Although Tim somehow only got 2nd at State as a sophomore... but he would have won the big classes without a doubt in either his junior or senior year.
not a contending state but since no one else has brought up PA figured I would throw out a quick list, probable top 5 with a few other contenders although I don't know some of the older guys accolades as well off the top of my head
Craig Miller 14:56 xc, 3 time state champ, 15th FL jr (collapsed lung before sr year) 4:06 mile soph year 8:22 3k in
Dan Coval- 7th at FL in 1999, 4 time 3200 state champ
Ian Gottesfeld state champ/21st FL jr year
Tony Russell 2 time state champ 4:09/8:58 14:58
Paul Springer 8:52 2 mile 14:47 xc 14:44 indoor 4:08 1600
Paul Vandegrift
Mike Connelly
Chris Dugan
Chris Spooner
Jason Weller
Jake Brophy
Mark Dennin
Vince Mcnally
repthekeystone wrote:
not a contending state but since no one else has brought up PA figured I would throw out a quick list, probable top 5 with a few other contenders although I don't know some of the older guys accolades as well off the top of my head
Craig Miller 14:56 xc, 3 time state champ, 15th FL jr (collapsed lung before sr year) 4:06 mile soph year 8:22 3k in
Dan Coval- 7th at FL in 1999, 4 time 3200 state champ
Ian Gottesfeld state champ/21st FL jr year
Tony Russell 2 time state champ 4:09/8:58 14:58
Paul Springer 8:52 2 mile 14:47 xc 14:44 indoor 4:08 1600
Paul Vandegrift
Mike Connelly
Chris Dugan
Chris Spooner
Jason Weller
Jake Brophy
Mark Dennin
Vince Mcnally
Mike McWilliams needs to be added.
InWyo wrote:
South Dakota
1. Billy Mills
2. Rod DeHaven
3. Buddy Edelen
4. Mike Dunlap
5. Paul Cummings'
6. Denis Fikes
7. Tony Smoragiewicz
Jim Reinhardt
black.september wrote:
J. Torres should replace Jager, who did not even qualify for FL his senior year.
Perhaps Terry Williams over Ryan Hall.
Yes, Torres is still the only 4-time FL qualifier for Boys in the 36 year history of the meet. He also had maybe the most impressive record of places ever, although it was earned in the weakest era.
But he did win FL and 3 State titles in XC, and this is for top State of Illinois team of all-time.
He ran something like 9:12 or 9:14 as a freshman.