aduck2002 wrote:
sexism not
epo doesnt work aswell on women which african would of only used
chinese/paula bagged blood too d difference
This guy reads like Yoda trying to write a Haiku.
Report: Chinese 10,000 WR holder Wang Junxia admitted to Chinese doping in 1995
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This guy reads like Yoda trying to write a Haiku. -
Endlessness wrote:
Are we seriously debating whether Ma's army was doping?
What do we know? We know that basically every single sport world wide has a doping program.
We know that testing catches about one percent.
We know that testing used to be even less successful.
We know that China is a country with authoritarian rule and a non transparent culture that is designed to make the State appear all powerful and successful.
We know that similar cultures have had extensive state supported doping programs. Every time some one does something unprecedented we hear that they train harder than anyone or they found a miracle like turtle soup. Those people are very often busted and then supposed reasons for their success are debunked. Remember there is basically nothing new that hasn't been tried by now.
We know that some tiny group with the same coach suddenly, out of no where, started breaking records to an unprecedented degree in obscure meets.
So how is there even a question as to whether these runners were doping? One would be an idiot to think otherwise.
This guy gets it and explained it. -
Mr. Obvious wrote:
Jeff Wigand wrote:
Nutella1 wrote:
Mr. Obvious wrote:
It still doesn't fully make sense of the 1993 records, which were outliers for so many of these athletes, including Wang.
That's an understatement:
3000m
Athelete Beijing Time Best time outside of Beijing
Wang Junxia 8:06 8:27
Qu Yunxia 8:12 8:28
Zhang Linli 8:16 8:29
Ma Liyan 8:18 (no other recorded time)
Zhang Lirong 8:22 8:31
I think everyone here can agree that the total distance covered in China was probably around 2850m, not 3000.
In other words, the track would have to be exactly 380m long.
The naked eye would not be able to tell a 380m track from a 400m track.
End of thread.
Ridiculous. There is no chance on earth the track was short. Answer me on these points to convince me that it wasn't a 400m track.
1. The same track was used for the 1990 Asian Games. Nothing out of the ordinary.
2. The men ran ordinary times. There's not one standing men's Chinese national record from the 1993 games, while there are ten Chinese women's records from the 1993 National Games.
3. The women did it again to a smaller extent in Shanghai in 1997. The same venue for the Diamond League. They didn't shrink it just for the women.
4. Omega timed the meet. You don't think they would notice?
5. How the hell would the hurdlers hit there marks? Setting up each hurdle 5% closer would completely throw them all off and the events would be ruined.
6. Ma Miaolan set huge personal bests in the long jump, high jump and javelin during her heptathlon national record at the 1993 National Games. Did they use a short tape to measure them?
The results from 1993 and 1997 are from drugs and training. Why has no one done it before or since? You can't do it. They had a large group of women that Ma literally beat into shape and they ran 25 miles a day, really hard and took every drug imaginable. Talent + drugs + training no one else would do.
Honestly, and I've written this, maybe in direct dialogue with you, before, I am just agnostic about what happened.
I just an not able to wrap my mind around the idea that they were doing that many more drugs in '93 than they were at other times, including at other international meets. I've always favored some sort of combo solution, although I don't have any evidence for it. Of course nobody else has much in the way of evidence to support any other theory either.
Based on the Chinese swimmers 1994 performance at the world championship it is not like they were only wlling to dope in domestic competitions.
The magnitude of doping matters in this case. Domestically, the Chinese women set world records. Internationally, the Chinese women were winning World Championships and Olympic Championships left and right.
Just look at the credentials that the participants in the 1993 National Games had:
**Liu Dong (800m winner) was a World Champion in the 1500m in 1993
**Qu Yunxia (1500m winner, 3000m 2nd place) was the 3000m 1993 World Champion and 1992 Olympic Bronze Medalist.
**Wang Junxia (3000m winner, Marathon winner, 10000m winner, 1500m 2nd place) was the 1996 5000m Olympic Champion, 1996 10000m silver medalist, and 1993 10000m World Champion.
**Zhang Lingli (1500m 3rd Place, 3000m 3rd Place, Marathon 3rd Place) was the 1993 3000m World Silver Medalist, and 1993 Marathon World Silver Medalist.
**Zhong Huangdi (10000m 2nd Place) was the 1991 10000m Silver Medalist, 1992 10000m Olympic 4th Place, and 1993 10000m World Silver Medalist,
**Zhang Lirong (10000m 3rd Place) was the 1993 World 3000m Bronze Medalist, and 1993 World Marathon Bronze Medalist.
Historically, I don't think that ANY group of men or women running in a single National Championship meet had credentials like these. Considering the fact that Ma's Army was caught with drugs several years later, it's likely that internationally, they were doped as much as possible while still being able to remain undetected. Domestically, they were likely doped well beyond what is normally safe. The fact that none of them had careers that lasted more than a few years supports this.
In fact, just look at the top 3 placers in the 10000m, Wang Junxia, Zhong Huangdi, and Zhang Lirong. Just for the year of 1993, they have 1 gold medal, 1 silver medal, and 2 bronze medals between them. Wang Junxia was drugged up, and running a 10000m time trial using equally drugged up World Championship Silver and Bronze medalists as pacers. It's no surprise at all that an absurd world record came out of it. -
Nutella1 wrote:
If it looks like a duck wrote:
Those times were and remain so far off the charts that obviously something had to be up. Hate to tie this to PR's 2:15 marathon, but much like those Chinese gals that run is an anomaly.
Apples and oranges. If you want to compare the Chinese runners to Paula's 2:15, then I hate to tell you but Paula's 2:15 is way off the charts.
The Chinese 10,000m and 3000m are now pretty much in line with the 5000m or even a bit weaker.
I am not being mean, but depending on how good a runner you are, one will realize (me, you, everyone) that a male who runs 8:06/29:31 could easily expect to run 2:15 or slightly faster. Also Paula herself tried for 10 years to run WRs at 3k, 5k and 10k. Why did she not succeed in hitting 28:48 like you claim she could have? She was not one of those runners who never really gave the 5k/10k a shot like Ceirpinski or Derek Clayton or Ian Thompson but had a supreme marathon time. She was banging her head against the wall trying to run fast at 3k/5k/10k also, and before the marathon. Do you contend that she only doped (or doped in earnest) when she took up the marathon?
One of my friends ran for years on the road and when he was about 30 he still had not broken 30:00 but had a 30:20r best. Similarly, he ran Boston and one other marathon every year. After doing that for 10 years and never breaking 2:20 he finally ran 2:17 at the Miami Orange Bowl Marathon (he beat Kjell-Erik Stahl). It is just one example but a 29:31 is not equivalent to 2:19-2:20. So, so many women have run 2:19-2:20 and only one has run 29:31 (if she even did).
Ditto with the 8:06 and the 14:24 that Junxia ran in her second half. -
Wow, at least she (they) have a conscience. More than I can say about a lot of people in my family, peer group, my religion, my state and country.
People have to understand that Chinese social culture and hierarchy has been intensely screwed up
ever since the Imperial Japanese and their abominable holocaust of the east (dont know about that, do ya?) ended with two necessary atom bombs
Leaving the way open for , what a surprise, corrupted communist takeover resulting in totalitarianism, starvation, cultural and intellectual destruction, purges, etc
In the west we would call this abuse against women, punishable harshly with long prison terms, with the courts and law enforcement predisposed heavily towards the ladies.
But I guess because white Westerners are so blanketingly racist and anti Oriental, we are quick to judge.
Corruption and bribes have also always been quite common in the former Soviet Union for reasons of historical chaos and atrocity after atrocity.
We won't solve any of the world's problems or our own unless we try to sincerely understand history and redeem the good in the world's peoples and traditions, a mutual barter economy of helping each other out.
The other day, I was on a city bus, not too crowded, full of diverse races... Blacks, Asians , Persians, etc. This white working class guy complains on the cell phone about worker abuse. A few minutes later, he cracks a tasteless misogynistic joke, on the occasion of the cold weather (whose death bearing I was starkly more familiar with than him), right as a pretty and demure Persian girl sat in front of us. Before I got up, I chastised him in front of the bus occupants. The guy wasn't even intelligent enough to understand my point. The black folk looked on, maybe with blank stares.
I will stand by the best of all races and all people, even while their mediocre and reckless laity refuse to stand with me, against any combination of evil. -
Endlessness wrote:
So how is there even a question as to whether these runners were doping? One would be an idiot to think otherwise.
newname wrote:
This guy gets it and explained it.
Yeah, he gets that you're both drug believers, that makes mere mortals into super beings that can leap from planet to planet, and break world records too (except in UK where they never use drugs and can do this anyway without them, never mind the hypocrisy involved in such a ridiculous notion). -
newname wrote:
Who has she had banned?
Coe / Radcliffe key to ridding athletics of doping
http://www.flotrack.org/article/28589-coe-radcliffe-key-to-ridding-athletics-of-doping -
Mr. Obvious wrote:
How can it be dirty if drugs don't work?
J.R. wrote:
Because drugs are against the rules, and Radcliffe uses said rules to have competitors banned, in my opinion what the drug fiasco's all about. Plus it is quite strange that Radcliffe's the only woman who's bettered 2:17. Many men have bettered 2:17, but no other women. There are other ways to be dirty besides using drugs. However we know for fact that Radcliffe has used the drug rules more than any other runner, to have people banned, and to eliminate competition.
If you don't understand this yet, pay attention and wake up. -
records only in china, as not going to bag blood like that anywhere else.
like paula in london
get hct > hct posible epo -
paula figured it out to late for 10k or 5k when just epo then made switch up distance.
had team,locations enable t dopin -
besides epo/epovariant ,kiprop and dibaba nothing without igf-1 lr3.
but for iaaf doesnt exist
and chinese were dirty !! -
chinese obvious.
CERA coverup could take down iaaf ,so journo's do your job nd dig nd push til a given.
get ramzi talkin -
rojo wrote:
Fast Dude Runner wrote:
The main reason why people want to erase Wang's records is because it's off the charts.
Guess what? It's not.
The Chinese 3,000 and 10,000m records align pretty much perfectly with the 5,000m -fake - record (McMillan calculator) and when compared with Paula's -fake- Marathon record, they can be considered WEAK.
Not true. I think the main reason people were shocked is that it came in China and was not on tv and because she ran the 2nd half of the 10,000 faster than the WR. People need to remember that the race was run in 1993. The WR for the 5000 at the time was 14:37.33. Wang's second half was 14:26.
Africa is still today (20+years later) a pretty sexist place. Back then, there was very little African competition so the women's WR should have been faster. Recently, last summer, I did start to think to myself, "A woman like Dibaba definitely could run a fake 29:31." So I agree that it's possible now 20 years later.
I've always thought about reaching out to Wang. You people do realize she's a University of Colorado grad, right? After she retired, she went to CU. So I assume she speaks good English and I'm always fascinated that the greatest runner to ever be a Buffalo might have been on campus and never interacted with Wetmore. Did Wetmore even know she was there? It would be so interesting to know if they ever talked.
there is only a slight chance the Africans are clean. why would you think they were???
################## the doper groups ###############
Caribbean, charlie Francis protocol, plus puls
ethopia drug protocol
kenya drug protocol
atlas mountains protocol, the ramzi protocol
american protocol
iron curtain protocol, merged with american
the al sal protocol, using legal cheating methods.
old school cheating, transfusions and "vitamin" injections, like viren, radcliffe, etc.
face it. elite track and field is an absolute lie. -
longjack wrote:
face it. elite track and field is an absolute lie.
So is the belief that you need drugs to be the best in the World. -
http://deportes.elpais.com/deportes/2012/11/27/actualidad/1354048073_052752.html
Here's an article (In Spanish) says that Wang junxia lives in Denver, married with a child.
Liu Dong, the 1500m champ from 93, lives in Spain and is married to the former Spanish middle distance coach. There was a time not many years ago when she was still running club-level meets in Spain - 1500m in not much faster than 5 minutes for example. There were videos on Youtube I think. -
Jon Orange wrote:
[quote]longjack wrote:
face it. elite track and field is an absolute lie.
Jon O: So is the belief that you need drugs to be the best in the World
Longjack: right, you are. but reality is reality. whatever that means.
if sports are your ticket out of a bad situation, what are you going to do?
or if you are a narcissist, there is only one choice too. or if you want to keep up with the pack? .......
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i study training methods and PED's on the side, to understand, asking what are the benefits? you know, for aids victims, cancer patients, elderly, quality of life issues.... useless stuff like that.
the best sports medicine is in the hands of a very few practitioners. they are guys like al sal, and charlie francis, and conte, who tap into physicians and other higher brow dabblers and experimenters.
do so you end up, in the process looking at a bunch of dodgy morons lying and stealing, behavior suitable for mad max, batman, and satan.
that is elite jackass elite sports for you. it's by and for the peasants. rather than doing anything beneficial. the focus is on winning and ego worship rather than health.
and when it comes to clean athletes, the women who dominate, typically have a clinical hormonal condition from "nature" that affords a higher level of testosterone.
whatever, it is what it is. -
longjack wrote:
i study training methods and PED's on the side, to understand, asking what are the benefits? you know, for aids victims, cancer patients, elderly, quality of life issues.... useless stuff like that.
PEDs for such people are the same as for everyone else, i.e. totally useless and destructive, especially destructive for the groups you mentioned. -
Wanggg wrote:
http://deportes.elpais.com/deportes/2012/11/27/actualidad/1354048073_052752.html
Here's an article (In Spanish) says that Wang junxia lives in Denver, married with a child.
Liu Dong, the 1500m champ from 93, lives in Spain and is married to the former Spanish middle distance coach. There was a time not many years ago when she was still running club-level meets in Spain - 1500m in not much faster than 5 minutes for example. There were videos on Youtube I think.
Frank Shorter doesn't run very fast these days either. -
she probably did admit to it ,but i believe she ran clean,in 1996,when she won the olympic 5000 metres.she backed it up with a 10'000 metre silver.she wasnt running astonishing times by 1996,but i remember watching her win the gold.wang junxia would have still been amazingly talented,even without drugs,not world record form,but talented nonethless.
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huge news quickly old news.
why does sonia epo o'sullivan get free pass like cathy freeman,
wit epo test called it aday
