... ... wrote:
The thing is the discussion is about pure talent. Not achievements. Ryun wrecked his body in highschool to achieve these things (shown by the fact that he was already at his peak by 19 in the mile). Hunter may not match these achievements but he is taking a long term approach and not focusing on going as fast as possible Right Now. So does Hunter have more pure talent?
+1 ... this can't be overstated.
4 world records?, a 1:44 and 3:51.3/3:51.1/3:33.1, plus an 8:25 2M, all of this before 1968, then despite mono and high altitude, a silver at 7000 ft in Mexico City with one of the fastest high altitude times ever by a low altitude athlete, and then after burnout, a 3:52.8 mile and a 3:41 Trials victory with a close in 51.5 (sub 37).
I'm surprised nobody's said Centro.
I ran during his years of Broadneck in MD and can honestly say he's the most naturally talented kid you'll ever see at 1500 and 2 mile high school. He looked sooo young too, whereas other guys had muscles and all, Centro looked like 15 when he was a senior. He trained minimally and of course looked smooth as can be. Obviously his times are nothing impressive compared to guys today, but look at who he beat on national scales and look at the way he beat them.
*1600 I mean
killin it wrote:
I'm surprised nobody's said Centro.
I ran during his years of Broadneck in MD and can honestly say he's the most naturally talented kid you'll ever see at 1500 and 2 mile high school. He looked sooo young too, whereas other guys had muscles and all, Centro looked like 15 when he was a senior. He trained minimally and of course looked smooth as can be. Obviously his times are nothing impressive compared to guys today, but look at who he beat on national scales and look at the way he beat them.
If you mention Centro Jr then you must mention German Fernandez also.
Maton was 19 when he ran 3:59 and he didn't even run for his high school. Grant Fisher was great, but he ran a very select schedule of events that suited his goals.
You should check out the schedule that someone like Craig Virgin or Dathan Ritzenhein ran for their HS as juniors and seniors.
What are these "studies" you speak of that have allowed the kids of 2016 to run almost as fast as those from 50 years ago?
farts wrote:
OK but one also has to admit that making a US olympic team in the 70s wasn't nearly as difficult as it is these days
Jim Ryun ranked 4th in the World in TaFnews in 1965 as a senior and ran 4 mile races under 4:00.
Ryun - he did wreck his body. But starting running in 10th grade and running 3:39 1500m in 11th grade is crazy.
Webb - almost a toss up between webb & Ryun to me.
German - German was by far the youngest runner of all of top guys. German didn't turn 18 until November of his freshman year at OKst
LV - 8:29 yikes. Lukas was not old. He was but then he skipped from 10th grade to 12th grade. Andrew Hunter is 8 months older than LV was as a senior.
I personally think Webb was the most "talented" US high school distance runner ever. Even when training with Salazar a decade later, everyone agreed he was the most talented of even that group. Webb was insane. 47.x 1:47, 3:53, 3:59i, 8:45i. Total freak of nature. Given he was 3rd place in his 3:53 behind only Lagat and El G, I suspect he might even have been able to eat a candy bar while running 63s. I really doubt Hunter could do that.
Yeah most people at the time thought and still think Webb could have run at least 8:25.
At the end of the year an objective measure will be to add up IAAF points for mile and 2 mile (1600/3200) and see where things shake out.
..that's your opinion. Plus you ignore or ignorant of Chapa and Hulst. Webb and Ryun were good but not gods after their marks at the mile. It's not all about mile.
Laramigo wrote:
Not even close. Jim Ryun is the greatest Highschool Distance runner ever.
After that it's Alan Webb.
Let's not even argue about the top 2 best male HS distance runners of all time and WHY. You should know why by now. Google that sh@t.
Then it's a toss up among a group of guys including Ritz, Fernandez, Lindgren, Rupp, Derrick, Nelson, Verzbicas, Cheserek, Hall. At the end of that group would be Hunter. All 9 of the guys mentioned in this group could have beaten Hunter. I am surely missing others but you get the idea.
The common trait from the second group of runners is they were aerobic demons but put them in a last lap mix up with our #1 and #2 Distance gods and they will lose every single time. Speed kills, baby. In fact - it's not fair to call Jim and Alan just distance runners. They would have been decent 400m runners if they had focused on that distance.
Anyway - for Hunter to reach God status he has to match Jim Ryun's 3:55. That is the Golden Standard. Way too many kids have done sub 4 now. 3:55 or better - you will be labeled "the one."
Talent rank wrote:
Ryun - he did wreck his body. But starting running in 10th grade and running 3:39 1500m in 11th grade is crazy.
Webb - almost a toss up between webb & Ryun to me.
German - German was by far the youngest runner of all of top guys. German didn't turn 18 until November of his freshman year at OKst
LV - 8:29 yikes. Lukas was not old. He was but then he skipped from 10th grade to 12th grade. Andrew Hunter is 8 months older than LV was as a senior.
Andrew Hunter is NOT 8 months older than Lukas as a senior. His birthday is Sept 5 1997. He turned 18 at the beginning of his senior year. Lukas turned 18 in January of his senior year. This is not an 8 month difference. Please get the facts straight- there is enough BS on LetsRun about this.
fkdfjdskfjsdl wrote:
Hunter is almost certainly on PEDs but congrats.
His perfomrance is so singular and rare in an era where PEDs are so common and where there is such great incentive to cheat (esp HS where there is no testing and a college scholarship for 250k is in the offing), that it is almost impossible to presume he isn't using EPo or test to help him. I know for a fact that even B level cross county kids use EPO to improve their times in regular communities, it would be very logical for Hunter to be using.
I strongly suspect that guys like Ryun, Elliott, Snell and other greats used testosterone (not illegal then and widely used in Europe since the 1920s by athletes, Paavo Nurmi used it and used by soldiers in WWII, Vietnam). The entire metaphor of Captain America is based on the discovery of synthetic testosterone. Our athletic, military and man culture has been defined by PEDs since WW 2.
Oh yes, it has to be drugs. What other explanation could there possibly be. No-one can be that much faster than you without drugs right?
J.R. wrote:
The training program was great, not so crazy. Bob Timmons was one of the greatest coaches anywhere, and he got an undeserved trashing by having a high school runner beat Snell.
Timmons was not the coach when Ryun beat Snell.
For Ryun's entire senior year of high school, J.D. Edmiston (a criminally underrated coach) concocted and conducted Jim's training. And all he did was coach the team to a State win in xc (IIRC); then coached first AND SECOND in the outdoor State meet mile, in which Ryun ran sub-four (on dirt); and coached Ryun to a 3:55.3 mile, just a few weeks after JR's 18th birthday, in a race wherein Jim beat the men who took first and second in the previous year's OG 1500.
J.D. was not a Timmons clone. He was a solid, knowledgeable technical coach with great "people savvy" who guided (and protected) Ryun through a year of media attention and pressure that are almost unimaginable nowadays, when t&f is no longer a major American sport.
He has very impressive leg speed velocity and you can never discount that fact. With his leg speed velocity he is definitely up there.
You are correct.
I remembered the other thread that had Hunter's birthday being in May. Someone did correct it.
September is correct.
So 4 months older than Lukas (1 year, 2 months older than German though which is why I rank German so high).
Is there a rule against attaching a helium balloon to yourself while running a road race?
Jakob Ingebrigtsen has a 1989 Ferrari 348 GTB and he's just put in paperwork to upgrade it
How rare is it to run a sub 5 minute mile AND bench press 225?
Am I living in the twilight zone? The Boston Marathon weather was terrible!
Move over Mark Coogan, Rojo and John Kellogg share their 3 favorite mile workouts
Mark Coogan says that if you could only do 3 workouts as a 1500m runner you should do these