What you mentioned could also be said with a group of Russian or Japanese athletes. Race doesn't matter. Ability to relate to athletes, know names, etc.. It is not racism.
What you mentioned could also be said with a group of Russian or Japanese athletes. Race doesn't matter. Ability to relate to athletes, know names, etc.. It is not racism.
I believe wrote:
What you mentioned could also be said with a group of Russian or Japanese athletes. Race doesn't matter. Ability to relate to athletes, know names, etc.. It is not racism.
The 2015 Boston winner — Lelisa Desisa — doesn't exactly have a blank-slate resume. He's won multiple majors and is a repeat Boston winner. That's a name you don't know?
I believe wrote:
What you mentioned could also be said with a group of Russian or Japanese athletes. Race doesn't matter. Ability to relate to athletes, know names, etc.. It is not racism.
OK — xenophobia if you prefer? Using the word "racism" doesn't mean I picture you in a Clansmen hood on your way to your next lynching.
This is more the truth. The bottom line is you just like to see your guy win. And from an American perspective our "guy" is the American runner not the seemingly interchangeable endless flow of east Africans who have been dominating. To make matters worse there hasn't been a lot of continuity at the top. Very few of the East Africans have maintained dominance, it's been very hard to follow the top athletes when someone comes out of nowhere to run a couple great races then disappears.
The American fan perceives we can't compete with the best distance running so they've just following it. It has nothing to do with Racism. Americans love Meb and do care how he does. But it's because he's our "guy" and he is charismatic. Not to mention a great story of the "American Dream". Same with the British fan and Mo Farah.
Boston & Falmouth were at their heights of popularity when local, American guys (Rodgers/Al Sal) were winning. Non-running sports fans actually got excited about watching the race, not the side-show Charity jog-fest it has become.
The casual sports fan couldn't care less about watching Africans take the first 15 spots, as is the case today. The BAA realizes this and now focuses on the masses (Charity runners) and this has become a Cash Cow for them.
You can call this Racist or Xenophobic, buts its the truth.
I believe wrote:
What you mentioned could also be said with a group of Russian or Japanese athletes. Race doesn't matter. Ability to relate to athletes, know names, etc.. It is not racism.
Fully agree. Same thing is happening in MLB. Where is the next Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Nolan Ryan, Bob Gibson, Mickey Mantle, Derek Jeter, Roberto Clemente, Ken Griffey, Jr., Cal Ripken, Pedro Martinez... ?
I found this article by Toni Reavis which is basically a conversation between himself and Pat Lynch, the guy in charge of the elite marathon field in Boston from 1986 to 2012, to be a great read.http://tonireavis.com/2016/01/27/theory-of-perverse-incentives-in-running/#more-14432A couple of my favorite quotes.
and
As someone who covers running full time, I'll say a few things.
1) We hear at LetsRun.com always try to 'contextualize' performances. It drives me nuts when I see a race recap even if it's from a good source like RRW that says "Lelisa Desisa won the *** half-marathon." People don't know who Lelisa Desisa so try to say something like, Two-time Boston marathon champ Lelisa Desisa.
2) That being said, I've come to the conclusion that "running isn't more popular" simply because it isn't marketed well is not true. I 100% agree that "they just keep repeating the same old story over and over again" but guess what so does the NFL. Andrew Luck (son of an NFL player, Qb dor the Colts) is a similar story to Payton Manning. Cam Newton (black quarterback overcoming racial stereotypes) is similar to Doug Williams. The Denver Broncos team this year (Great team lately but hasn't won a Super Bowl)sounds like the Denver teams of the 80s until Elway got over the hump.
The thing that few insiders will admit is a running race just isn't as interesting as an NFL game. There is no equivalent of a deflected interception in running. There isn't a randomness to wins/losses like that gives underdogs a chance like there is in the NFL or soccer.
When I was at Cornell at track practice ended, there often were soccer games on the field. I didn't need the game to be contextualized for me for me to enjoy it. I could just watch it realize the score was 2-1. In a marathon, last week when watching Dubai, the average fan isn't going to find that interesting unless they are on our boards realizing, "Holy shit, they just broke the 30k WR. The guy leading now is a 2:09 guy."
3) That doesn't mean the sport can't be marketed way better. I was thinking the other day when watching Dubai. Dubai has become boring, it's the same thing ever year. Why doesn't Dubai just take a year off and have no pros and then offer a $1 million first prize every other year. That will create some buzz.
Why doesn't New York have rabbits once every four year or every other year?
Why doesn't New York only have elite men one year (but double the prize money) and then elite women the next?
Any ideas? Your thoughts?
Don Draper wrote:
Correction: Pat Lynch was the elite athlete coordinator for the Boston Marathon (through John Hancock) through 2013, not 2002. Mary Kate Shea worked with Pat for years before becoming the stand-along EAC.
I wrote 2002 initially instead of 2012. I stand corrected.
Primo Numero Uno wrote:
The American fan perceives we can't compete with the best distance running so they've just following it. It has nothing to do with Racism. Americans love Meb and do care how he does. But it's because he's our "guy" and he is charismatic. Not to mention a great story of the "American Dream". Same with the British fan and Mo Farah.
This is more than a little revisionist. I agree with your assessment of Meb — fully realized "American Dream" story — but there were quite a few people in and around this board that rejected him as not really American at the time, and that's not to say anything of people who aren't actively engaging with the sport.
Mike trout, Chris Davis, Clayton kershaw, Zach greinke, Andrew mccutchen...the list goes on
I couldn't remember that Lelisa won Boston in 2015 and I watched the entire race on the internet.
I remember watching the NY marathon on TV when I was a kid in the late 70s early 80s. It was huge. It was a front page story in the paper the next day and a lead story on the national nightly news. The story was 90% about the pros with an odd human interest here and there about someone overcoming personal circumstance to be a marathoner. Americans won marathons in the 70s and early 80s. Athletics were also huge at that time because of the rivalry between the communist countries and the West. With no EPSN, everyone had to watch what was on Wide World of Sports on the weekend or watch Lone Ranger reruns on UHF. The top US runners were not any more interesting that the E. Africans today. AlSal had spunk, but Bill Rodgers, Frank Shorter, Greg Meyer, etc. were about as interesting as your accountant.
Today, there are a zillion choices on the TV for sports. Every college and pro game is on TV. Every golf and tennis tournament is on TV. Every NASCAR race is on TV. Sports that did not exist for all practical purposes thirty years ago like beach volley ball and MMA are on TV. The East/West rivalry is all but gone. Only one US runner has won a major marathon in the past 20 years. And only recently have US runners been on the podium at major marathons.
You can give away a zillion dollars or come up with all kinds of gimmicks, but the fact is that no one in the US will care about pro marathoners unless there are Americans winning races. And even if Americans get back to being competitive, the marketplace for sports is so crowded that it is probably impossible to get the focus back on pro running the way it was in the 70s and 80s.
Bleu wrote:
Honestly, II have no idea who won Boston and I'm sure I looked at the results, possibly followed the mile by mile.
+1
no clue who won the last boston, NYC, London or Berlin although I watched every mile of each.
when East Africa wins everything every year fans have to work very hard to differentiate the competitors. I don't do that work.
I still enjoy watching the race develop but I really don't have any east african marathon favorites - I just like to watch a good race.
Summary: Old guy thinks things were better back in the day.
kmaclam wrote:
Wow! Crazy, but telling, that Lynch couldn't name last year's winner. All those ideas you proposed to jazz things up, resonate with me, a hardcore fan of the sport, but if I float those same ideas past my wife, ….."meh"
That's because we have to face facts. Not that many "regular" people like your wife care to watch a bunch of skinny guys and gals that generally look alike in body proportions run 26 miles in a pack, sharing their water bottles with each other and talking about their race afterwards in severely broken and accented English or in restrictive individual terms. People want heroes and villains that they can relate to, trash-talking and being solely focused on completely and massively breaking their opponents over the distance. Everything that running likes to put its nose in the air over, such as it's high-minded collegiality, nice attitudes relative to pro-NFL and NBA types, focusing on records, etc. is the very thing that will destroy this sport in the long run. It's time to deliberately start setting up races with storylines that can catch attention and turn the elites from generic skinnies to characters or personalities that people want to see win or lose!
Ask yourself, what draws thousands of Japanese "average joe" civilians to line the streets for running events held in the country? University and corporate team relays where the athletes have a distinct personality or drive that resonates with the culture they live in. Why did Yuki Kawauchi rise to so much fame in Japan--because he was counter-culture, sticking it to the conventional darlings of Japanese running, and willing to heap humiliation on himself when he failed through acts such as shaving his head (again, that is a particular act targeted towards the culture he is in). It's basic PR and marketing. Target audience, not altruism!
Toni and Pat, my old friends and former Greater Boston Track Club team members. I want to talk about team racing in road races.
We all know about the NCAA XC nationals and how we are interested in which teams win. We love the team scores at checkpoints. That's what road races need. They need a team score and with that the possibility of a sudden change in a team's fate like an interception or bases loaded home run. If you need five to score and one drops out....whoa! where is the sixth runner?
So, team score, team prize money only, no appearance money. Checkpoint scores. If your team starts five guys and one drops, you get nothing, the other team takes it all. Score like XC on place so a kick in the meters could make all the difference.
The teams can be composed of anyone from any country hired by the team—one that is named after a city like the Boston Codfish or Lobsters, or maybe the Baltimore Oysters.
Tom,
ps GBTC will have men's and women's teams at Boston but there are only three to a team and no prize money and no team score banner running across the video coverage.
I would not call it racism. I think it is true that people lost interest after African domination. That is mainly because they constitute the whole lead pack and no one knows who they are, which is partly a marketing and broadcasting issue. The old nyc and Bostonians were more like the Olympics where you had a diverse group of runners. You had a bunch of different guys going sub 2:10 Seko, DeCastella, hussein, Rod Dixon, Shahanga, Ikanga. It's not that people hate great African runners - it's just become a dual meet between Kenya and Ethiopia. I am less likely to watch a bike race that is all spaniards. Lots of people around the world watch MLB because this rplayers are the league. Less so with the NFL.
I believe wrote:
I think that saying racism is the cause is a rather simple minded thought process. I don't think the average fan can relate to an East African name (nor a White Russian) or understand as they speak.
There is a reason Pre was popular. Charisma.
Try to use the brain a little instead of the tired, misinterpreted use of the term racism.
Halleluja wrote:
rojo wrote:I couldn’t tell you who won Boston last year.
Lets face it, because of his honesty, deep religious believes and good looks, more people will remember Ryan Hall's AR in 2011 than who won that year.
And that is not a bad thing.
This. Ryan Hall appealed to his target audience of America's southern evangelistic religious base. Just like Tim Tebow got press for himself by going all Christian on the field. It's time for some serious PR work to revitalize this sport.
agip wrote:
Bleu wrote:Honestly, II have no idea who won Boston and I'm sure I looked at the results, possibly followed the mile by mile.
+1
no clue who won the last boston, NYC, London or Berlin although I watched every mile of each.
when East Africa wins everything every year fans have to work very hard to differentiate the competitors. I don't do that work.
I still enjoy watching the race develop but I really don't have any east african marathon favorites - I just like to watch a good race.
While I agree with much of what has been written on this thread, the TV/internet race coverage continues to be awful. It seems every race break is missed while a commercial is on. Chicago spent much time with reporters at street corners talking about the weather and to people waiting there to see someone they know run by. The poor planning that goes into the presentation of the races is a major issue.
Talk about racism is just dumb. There are hugely popular black players in the NBA, NFL, etc. Meb is among the most popular US marathon runners.
Even being a foreigner is not that big a disadvantage if there is some reason for the public to care. There are lots of popular Dominicans, Japanese, etc. in MLB and popular Africans, east Europeans, etc. in the NBA. The difference is that if someone from another country is playing for your team, Americans will root for him.
The difference in track is that no one in running is running for a team or anything recognizable to a casual viewer. Being on the "Nike team" or "adidas team" means nothing, and being on the Bowerman TC or Hanson's ODP only means something to people who follow running. When a runner belongs to a recognizable group - like when Meb has run in his USA jersey - he gets a big crowd reaction. But a bunch of East African runners all in identical Nike or adidas jerseys means nothing to most people watching them run by.
Running has got to find some way of giving casual fans or casual race watchers something to have rooting interest in. How to create that rooting interest is the $64,000 question for running and track.
The real reason wrote:
The major reason for the rapid decline in the popularity of elite distance running among potential fans in the past 40 years, is due to one thing and one thing only....racism. Once the East African started to dominate the sport and take all of the prize money, people started to lose interest. You can observe that this is clearly the case.
There were plenty of East Africans, mostly Kenyans, in the sport when it was more popular. Were the EAs as popular as Americans and others from Engliish speaking countries? No. But there was quite a buzz one year at the Midlands 15k in New Jersey because Henry Rono was there. There were, as I see it, two big differences. One is that westerners and EAs were very competitive. Herb Lindsay,Jon Sinclair, Nick Rose, etc. were as likely to win a race as Rono or Joseph Nzau were. The other difference was that the EAs who were winning or challenging in races then were largely the same people race after race so you knew them as runners and not just as the Kenyan du jour. If I stretch my brain I probably still could give you the names of a half dozen Kenyan road racers from that time without looking them up. There's no way I could do that about current ones.