NYCM and NYRR being sued for $10+ million for running illegal lottery

NYRR is non-profit. In other words, all the money they earn, they have to spend. If the money they take in through the lottery goes to the homeless in NYC and to those in need, how is that a bad thing?

NYRR donates more money to charity than probably all of Susan Komen combined.

Here is my question.... How can the $11 processing fee be considered a Lottery Fee if every runner whether you are entering the Lottery or have a guaranteed entry has to pay it. If these to jokers from Utah don't like the Lottery what will happen is this....

NYRR will open registration for a month or so for everyone who qualifies through all their various methods.

NYRR will lock up the charity spots, travel partner spots and deferral spots.

Then they can do a free for all ..... and if these guys think their chances will increase over 15 % good luck !! But you will still pay the same $11 processing fee !!

Stick with eharmony wrote:

FIRE MARY WITTENBERG!!!

She's a fraud, she's completely useless

And the NYRR go back in time to grant Stick's wish-

jjjjj wrote:

Is the admissions fee for applying to an elite university in a similar category?

No, because university admissions are not "chance-based". If runners were hand-picked for the marathon on the basis of their personal stories (or whatever), then presumably it would be legal.

Can somebody who understands lottery laws chime in here? What is the likely outcome of this case, and what questions will it turn on? Is the issue whether the $11 can be considered the cost of processing your application vs. being considered payment for a 15% chance of getting into the marathon, like "dude bro" suggested?

Other races have lottery entry. Do they charge a fee as well?

Logically, it seems like it would turn on whether $11 is a legitimate processing fee or not.

On the one hand, if it really costs $11 to process an entry (whatever that legitimately involves), then it's not a lottery - you are just compensating NYRR for the cost of having your application processed.

On the other hand, if it really only costs NYRR $1 to process your entry (whatever that legitimately involves), then the other $10 of the $11 fee is only a fee to buy you a chance to participate in the NYCM, which would make it a lottery - paying money to buy a chance at winning something valuable.

NYC BRO wrote:

NYRR is non-profit. In other words, all the money they earn, they have to spend.

That's not what a non-profit means.

But the point everyone is missing is this....

I have a guaranteed entry. Thus I didn't enter the lottery but I paid the same $11 fee that those who entered the lottery paid. So how is it a Paid Lottery if people who don't enter for a chance to win a secured slot pay the same fee ??

Liberalism = a mental disorder wrote:

A small entry fee is a perfectly reasonable way to limit the lottery to only serious entrants and harms no one against their will.

But, they must stop this horrible non-profit's activity so they can continue running their own corrupt lottery schemes like the Powerball. I love our government!

Surely these plebes know that gambling is immoral unless the government is running it!

Exhibit A:

PWay Runner wrote:

But the point everyone is missing is this....

I have a guaranteed entry. Thus I didn't enter the lottery but I paid the same $11 fee that those who entered the lottery paid. So how is it a Paid Lottery if people who don't enter for a chance to win a secured slot pay the same fee ??

Good point - therefore it's a registration/administration fee and has nothing to do with the drawing.

I think active.com also used to take an administration fee for all registration for 3rd party events. Not sure if active.com is still around?

rojo wrote:

Liberalism = a mental disorder wrote:

A small entry fee is a perfectly reasonable way to limit the lottery to only serious entrants and harms no one against their will.

But, they must stop this horrible non-profit's activity so they can continue running their own corrupt lottery schemes like the Powerball. I love our government!

Great post.

It's not a great post.

Would you be ok with airlines forcing you to "reserve" tickets months in advance and taking an "entry fee" of 11 bucks no matter whether you get a seat (and the privilege of paying 200 bucks for the actual flight) or not. I mean, how "serious" are you about flying?

There are a gazillion industries with a limited number of slots available for consumers. Airlines, rental cars, hotels. None of them operate pay for entry drawings to obtain services because doing so is clearly against the law. This is also why almost all promotional contests have a "No purchase necessary" option.

The 11 dollars is not an entry fee because it doesn't guarantee entry in the race. As another poster has said, it is not an "application" fee either because the drawing is entirely random and therefore a game of chance. That is why It is likely that a court will find (similar to the Kona Ironman case) that the drawing is an illegal lottery.

The fact that the state of New York might be hypocritical in prohibiting private lotteries while supporting publicly supported Powerball is besides the point.

NYRR is a disgrace.

I hope they are forced to pay back every cent of their rip off lottery fees.

PWay Runner wrote:

But the point everyone is missing is this....

I have a guaranteed entry. Thus I didn't enter the lottery but I paid the same $11 fee that those who entered the lottery paid. So how is it a Paid Lottery if people who don't enter for a chance to win a secured slot pay the same fee ??

Because they keep it for those people who's names aren't drawn. If they refunded the $11, I'd agree. I'd argue the $11 is more for verifying your time etc. Things not required for the lottery entrant.

don't know wrote:

Other races have lottery entry. Do they charge a fee as well?

Doesn't MCM have a lottery? Do they charge a non-refundable fee?

LIrunner21 wrote:

Matt and charles. Easy solution. Run fast enough to get a time qualifier and you will it have to worry about the lottery.

NYRR has a terrible qualification system, you can only qualify running one of their races, so it could be pretty useless if you live outside USA

NYCM and NYRR being accused of operating an illegal lottery has nothing to do with running, the cost of running the event, or their nonprofit status. The state of NY has very specific regulations for any organization who wants to run a "lottery" of any type.

If you collect $ in order for someone to have a chance to collect a "prize" (in this case the entry into the Marathon), you need to follow NY State's regulations. I guess NYCM and NYRR forgot to do that....

PWay Runner wrote:

But the point everyone is missing is this....

I have a guaranteed entry. Thus I didn't enter the lottery but I paid the same $11 fee that those who entered the lottery paid. So how is it a Paid Lottery if people who don't enter for a chance to win a secured slot pay the same fee ??

Based on the NYRR's response, this seems to be what they are hanging their hat on:

In a statement, Chris Weiller, a spokesman for the Road Runners, said: “Our entry process for the marathon is compliant with the law. The $11 processing fee, which supports our mission as a not-for-profit community-based running organization, is charged to everyone who registers for the marathon regardless of whether they participate in the drawing or receive a guaranteed entry.”

But this $11 is charged even if you lose the lottery, right?

If so then it's not a "processing" fee for a guaranteed / "lottery won" entry (which would somewhat make sense from a legal standpoint).

To me it's lottery fee (and a rip off for guaranteed entries).

i wish big marathons allowed entrants to pay a non-refundable fee, say $50 (it could be any number, so don't jump on me here) which would essentially be an insurance policy that allows runners to switch or transfer over an entry to another name.

basically, i pay $150 for a marathon and then an additional $50 to have the right to transfer the entry to someone else if i change my mind, am not fit, get injured, whatever.

there would have to be a strict limit that allows only one purchase per name/credit card, but it would, in my opinion, get more competitive runners to enter marathons (we have the tendency to be cautious if we don't think we'll be fit enough or are getting over an injury when sign up i happening)

sign up, lose $50 and sell it to a friend instead of losing $150 or letting your buddy run under your name and DNF it