Was Herb Elliott really undefeated at 1500/mile

26

I think that seriously underrates Cerutty as a coach.

wha? wrote:

just out of curiosity - how old was Snell when he lost to Ryun in SD

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I believe Snell was 26 when 18 year-old Ryun beat him in San Diego in 1965 (when he set an AR 3:55.3 at the end of high school -- beating the Olympic champion and setting an AR is one reason many set Ryun one notch above Webb, no disrespect to Webb). But Snell was having a "terrible" (for him) "farewell tour". I suspect that after the '64 OG he had lost some of the desire and probably hadn't gotten into the shape he was in in '64. I think it was about Snell that Lydiard said: a big man is hard to get into shape, but once in shape he's hard to beat (paraphrase . . . probably applied to Walker too). The difference between '64 and '65 for Snell was, I suspect, a degree of conditioning.

HRE: you're right; I suspect Cerruty was quite a good coach. But he was such a colorful, quotable character that his coaching sometimes got lost in it; I think sometimes he went over-the-top on purpose for reasons of self-promotion; he actually made Lydiard look cool and sober in comparison, which is saying something. But Cerruty coached both Landy and Elliot, which is quite a resume. I would like to get ahold of one of his books one of these days (alibris et al occasionally has one for $100+, which is a bit much).

hhhmmm wrote:

in fact theres quite a few intelligent people who believe that the man who does currently hold the world record is in a different league than elliot

myself included

Did you really mean to be that ironic?

"But Cerruty coached both Landy and Elliot, which is quite a resume. I would like to get ahold of one of his books one of these days (alibris et al occasionally has one for $100+, which is a bit much)."

I just read Percy Cerutty's Autobiography "Why Die?" it was so awesome. everytime i read a bit i just wanted to go for a crazy hard run. it was only about $25 Australian. (Best $25 ive ever spent)[quote]Spider wrote:

awesome interview posted there with elliot. elliot is my favourite runner of all time...

In my opinion, Elliot is not the greatest miler ever. So many people talk about him being undefeated. Don't get me wrong, he was a wonderful athlete and this was a fantastic achievement, however he was only racing at international level for 3 or 4 years. Many of the great milers have had similar, if not longer unbeaten streaks at interntational levels.

Morceli and El G both dominanted the mile for a longer period than Elliott.

And both failed on their first attempts to win OG gold. If both of them had the balls to do what Herb did in 60, they would have won as he did. I'm sure if Herb was making the tpye of money the guys today are making, he would have stayed around a few more year.

I know it doesn’t contribute much in the area to which this tread has wandered into, but when Elliott was touring Europe in a Volkswagen combi after his successful 1958 series of races - he got out and ran 28 miles along the roads from the pure pleasure of simply running.

"But Cerruty coached both Landy and Elliot"

From what I understand, Cerruty "claimed" to coach Landy, but he did not actually do so. According to "The Perfect Mile" Landy coached himself, after a brief flirtation with Cerruty's coaching.

I have read all of Cerruty's books, and he was half genius and half nutcase. I do think he had ideas that incorporated many of the modern ideas of plyometrics, etc.

Percy did briefly coach Governor Landy but after Landy ran 4.14 at the OG's he went and trained himself although his training remained much the same. Landy is a gentle, kind natured character and had difficulty with Percy's personality.

Percy was an enigma. He pre-empted most of what is now common training practice, but was then considered quite outrageous ideas. His ideas on nutrition, building an endurance base, doing long runs, hill/sandhill work, training camps, fartlek, speed work, bounding drills, weights, breathing techniques etc are now common place but certainly weren't in the 40s. Unfortunately he was a bit of a mental case as many geniuses are.

Elliott retired after Shell offered him a scholarship at Cambridge and a bright corporate future.

Interestingly he had hoped to also run the marathon in Rome based on his strong 30miler he'd done in training. Unfortunately officialdom stopped him.

His training was actually very Lydiard like as both Cerrutty and Lydiard had similar ideas largely based on Newton's writings.

I know that Bill Baillie spent some time with Cerutty and was quoted as saying that he didn't see much difference between what Lydiard did and what Cerutty did. From what I've read about Cerutty's approach, I'd agree. He also had his guys do base training, then had resistance and sped phases like Arthur did. Cerutty is seldom thought of as a base building coach, but his own running was heavily influenced by Arthur Newton.

I think that in his case, his approach to training was somewhat lost behind his public personality. Lydiard told me that Cerutty was such a showman that people had a hard time following his methodology.

The biggest difference between Cerutty and Lydiard was that Cerutty sometimes came across as loony. I was at a speech given by Cerutty about 35 years ago. What I remember the most is that he was proclaiming that man was meant to run as a horse. He kept galloping across the stage to stress this. He looked and talked like a crazy wild man but we were still all enthralled.

I came to the conclusion back then that the correct talent with the right coach has always gotten great results no matter what the coach's theories. An example is Igloi, Stampfl, Coe and Lydiard to name a few who coached differently, some very differently than others, but each had some superb results. Remember that each must have had his failures also.

Folks:

For those who have never seen Herb Elliot in action, check out this film documentation of the 1960 Olympic final, including words by the man himself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pr0dWz_6oEI

I apologize, if this has already been posted.

. wrote:

Snell beat him for sure in an 800

there are lots of pictures out there

Britain's Brian Hewson defeated Elliott in the 1958 AAA's half-mile championsip, but Herb avenged this defeat a few months later at the Commonwealth (or Empire) Games. This is where he ran the last lap in 50.5 secs. Hewson says he was persuaded to wear a Stampfl vest at the AAA's when he saw Elliott wearing his Cerutty vest.

Coach Pimm wrote:

Folks:

For those who have never seen Herb Elliot in action, check out this film documentation of the 1960 Olympic final, including words by the man himself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pr0dWz_6oEI

I apologize, if this has already been posted.

dang, no apology necessary.

i am impressed by elliot's charge to the finish when he took the lead. each stride moved him away from the field in world record momentum. rare a world record in the distances in the olympic final.

A classic barefoot runner!

didn't retire after the olympic -look at cambridge universities top 10 list and he is still there for some of the distance events post '60

Elliott also has the distinction of writing (with help from Trengove) what is arguably the best book by a runner, "The Golden Mile." Unfortunately it's hard to find.