SERIOUS DISCUSSION ONLY - Ryan Hall, Albert Salazar, Alan Webb, and Fatigue

NOP Mystery wrote:

The careers of Salazar, Hall and Webb went as expected. The outlier is Rupp. He should have already been on a downward slope. Or, maybe the slippery slope has been delayed by a year or two. It is inevitable that body joints, after prolonged, intense training will breakdown no matter how many supplements one ingests.

Remember, Salazar was smart enough after his own decline, to ask people like Bob Kennedy for advice.

Most runners and coaches, at some point think they know everything. With Salazar's personality he could have easily fallen into that trap. Instead he became a progressive coach, seeking to learn from others how to avoid causing what happened to him to happen to his athlete/Rupp.

Bob Kennedy gave Salazar great advice, and Salazar was humble and smart enough to take it. Benefit: Rupp.

Thank you Bob Kennedy.

There seems to be a movement out there that running, is not good for you. Everyone is different. Some people are still running in their 70's after having competed and trained hard in college. And some get knocked out of it in their 30's

Read a thread like "Calve heart attack."

Genetics is a big factor in this too.

It's not physical, it's mental. Your body can handle a lot of stress from training/racing. But your brain can only take so much. Of course there are those who's immune systems are weak and break down over time also. It differs from athlete to athlete. But everyone has their own "enough is enough" threshold. Once this threshold is crossed it's really difficult cross back again. It's a form of trauma or if you will, runners version of PTSD.

Foot racing isn't for the faint of heart. As everyone knows once your "game" starts there are no time outs, foul balls, halftime, TV timeouts ect. You're pedal to the metal from start to finish. There's a reason x-c runners, boys/young men wear t-shirts that say, "most sports use one ball, x-c uses both!"

I say God bless one and all who take up this great sport! There are no other athletes on this earth who work as hard or wrench their guts out as much as runners do!

You are sitting in a rowboat that is damaged and is taking on water. The faster you row, the more water your boat takes on. You have a certain number of corks that you can plug the holes with. The number of corks is set at birth.

100 meters away is the local turkey trot win.

200 meters away is an Olympic trials qualifying time.

300 meters away is an Olympic team.

400 meters away are world records and Olympic medals.

How fast do you row?

The body can adapt but after a certain point of stress the body is just putting corks in the holes of a sinking rowboat. Once you run out of corks, you are sunk.

Some guys like Salazar, Ryun, Webb rowed their asses off. So do most Kenyans...when your family is starving that is motivation.

This is not a lack of competitiveness or passion; indeed, without such fervor

for the sport and such high goals this result is just not possible. Such a long term imbalance between recovery and work is only possible with an individual with a lot of motivation. Do you last 30 years of running and run a 2:20 marathon? 10 years and run a 2:10? 5 years and run a 2:06?

This situation is by no means unique to running training or even endurance athletes in general. In almost any sport, the training that is required to get to the top takes its toll. Point blank, the workload that is necessary to achieve superhuman performances-drug free or not-is something that is not sustainable for more than a few years.

I remember feeling like a zombie for the first 3-6 miles of most runs...but then feeling like superman once everything clicked. As the years went on, it happened less and less.

You think you are invincible and that the rules don't apply to you...but every step you take is a step towards your last.

There are things you can do to mitigate the negative effects that training has on the body, but the reality is that far more people burn out than become stars. In any sport. Some will break down muscularly, others at a specific joint/tendon/tissue in the kinetic chain (PF, achilles, compartment syndrome, knee, IT band, hamstring, labral tear, sciatic nerve, sports hernia, loss of coordination). Those with good mechanics will last longer but the training still takes a toll on the immune system, adrenal glands, endocrine system, the nervous system, the brain, even the digestive system. I would imagine most top runners have some degree of heart and lung damage.

Lagat gained 5lbs in the off season.

Hall looked skeletal year round.

True pursued other sports.

Webb pounded intervals year round.

Long term breaks (in non Olympic years be 99% of your best, not 100%)

Auto-regulation.

Cortisol lowering techniques

Sufficient calories

Avoidance of stimulants.

Avoid extreme efforts (marathons in the heat, massive mileage, large volume of intervals)

Relaxed outlook towards training.

Easier easy runs (8min+)

Alternating marathon and track focus

Of course, without a lot of these, peak performance isn't possible. You have a choice to make when in your 20s. Do I want to be the best I can be, or do I want to run a long time.

I have not read most of the posts in this thread so maybe this has been discussed. PEDs are the most likely culprit here. All three likely used PEDs and trained very hard at times with the aid of these PEDs. This obviously could be a shortcut to fast times and their subsequent demise.

Going out on a limb - maybe the Prozac helped him deal with depression. Once he had his depression under control, he was able to train properly.

Ackley wrote:

crazy/insane wrote:

There is no mystery here. 150 miles a week and insane interval workouts will make you a great runner, but your days are numbered. Far more runners have followed this same path.

They accomplished great things over a few years only to have their careers shortened by the same thing that made it great. Read "On a Cold Clear Day" by Frank Murphy. The story of Buddy Edelen. Basically was the Alberto of the 60's. Inspired by the US pour showing in Rome 1960, he was a world beater and marathon record holder peaking over a two year period only to break down and finish 6th at the 1964 Olympics..... then drop off the map.

Wasn't Buddy's decline due to sciatica?

Yes.

the hard training damages everyone pretty much.

the only way to escape is to not push the envelop as far as it will go.

a couple of guys escape.

this is why it would be nice to have PEDs legal by prescription. and have the science out in the open.

guys like webb, sal(back in the day), hall have no idea what they are doing, i mean they know something but they are shooting in the dark about the science, especially when they are getting - not suddenly - into a deficit. it is a chronic condition, and you have to be doing something wrong for a long time.

and the local MD has much less a clue about athletics, and sports medicine. those guys are NEVER effective.

it is a mess. the good information about sports medicine is pushed underground. the good doctors, you can't get them. the ineffective drugs you can take.

the bro.jos and "good guys" want to continue to force PED use and the best of the science, the guys who really find out what works, and eventually through human trial disasters what does not work, underground.

the bad guys are sickening actors and pathological liars, win at all costs bunch, self justifying the behavior,

no, the good guys and the bad guys ways and thinking combine to provide no solution what so ever. just a big mess and waste of time.

where are the gains?

who benefits?

maybe you'll have a clean (kind of) 1500 OG final soon, but what does that really mean to the planet? or even a college kid running the 1500?

no, there is such a thing as science and the information and practice can be very useful. and offer treatment to all of us, webb, hall etc. but effective practical application of the available cures out there is between slim and none to many in the current format of "good guys" vs "bad guys"

it is a mess, mess, mess. with jackass a plenty.

i mean, what is everyone here trying to achieve? to set the stage make 1000 elite athletes rich and play fair with one another? while they sabotage the scientific process, well the scientific process is already a total mess across the board, but you know what i mean.

go think again.

^^ excellent point. I 100% agree. Someone needs to take that stance.

What's the lesson for the average competitor? The 2:50 marathoner?

I don't believe. Surely there is a sweet spot. Not in elite marathon training, but somewhere.

Agree. Except 8:00min+? Seems way too slow. Maybe 7:30?

I'd rather run a long time myself.

There is no lesson for the average competitor. There is a reason they are average. They honestly don't have to worry about the concerns in this thread.

This is about the .01% of athletes that have the willpower, mechanics and discipline to break themselves metabolically and endocrinologically through years of focused, intense high volume overtraining.

8:00, 6:30, 9:27, 8:47...who cares.

This generation is so focused on the numbers that they forget that how you feel is so much more important particularly on easy runs.

Now here's someone who's on to something.

Yup hypothesizer really got goin with the gueswork there. Put it into nice simple neurobabble too. Makes complete sense don't it?

I'm really interested in your third theory. As someone interested in psychology, I wonder how much validity there is to someone rewiring or altering their unconscious functioning to not allow them to exert themselves as fully as before.

I had a friend in high school who ran a 20 second PR (9:29 )in his county meet as a freshman. He pushed himself so hard that he blacked out for a few seconds after crossing the finish line. My friend said that in races afterwards, he felt as if he had become hesitant to push himself hard anymore. He never reached that PR time again, and wasn't the same runner afterwards. While there may be other factors, I wonder how much of his decline was due to his psychology.

While he isn't an elite like Hall, Webb, or Salazar, there may be some merit to them pushing themselves to the brink and their unconscious limiting from reaching that point anymore. This would be challenging to find empirical evidence or support, so I guess it will always be speculation.

Efforts in the heat especially can do it.

The body is not interested in running fast, it is interested in homeostasis and survival, and if you push too hard for too long-or far too hard once-the brain will stop you from doing so again for survivals sake.

pluto here wrote:

Efforts in the heat especially can do it.

The body is not interested in running fast, it is interested in homeostasis and survival, and if you push too hard for too long-or far too hard once-the brain will stop you from doing so again for survivals sake.

Except.........the tons, and tons, and tons of guys and gals that HAVE done just that, and continued on for very long careers without the "burnout" or whatever one wants to call it.

Some people get injured. Some people burn out. Some continue on nicely for a very long time. Ever hear of Meb? Geb? Lagat? Yes, maybe the africans are more naturally suited for this, but there are white guys that have had nice long careers too. (and many white guys who have excelled for long periods in other sports: guys with LOTS of high level ironman triathlons, or years in the TdF, or look at Michael Phelps! Yes, he's not old, but he's been training at an extremely high level of volume and intensity for at least 15 years. And swimming is no joke either.

I'm not disputing that people burn out. Some certainly do. But pushing hard for years on end doesn't always result it in it. Some people are just incredibly durable, on every level.)

You must do long runs all year long. It is only for a short tapering that you might cut those down a bit.

Some people do even their long runs way too fast. You also want to work on speed all year long. People think that 10 x 200 is working on speed. NO, that is interval work and is to be avoided, except during the sharpening stages.

Speed is less than 100 meters and hill repeats. Bounding, and dynamics.

These are secrets but no body listens.

In the first post readrun listed 5 similarities between Ryan Hall and Alberto Salazar. Another distinction is the Boston Marathon being the beginning of the running career end for both athletes. Salazar had the 1982 Duel (which he wrote in "14 Minutes" is a factor to his cardiac woes) and Hall had the 2:04 in 2011. While both raced marathons after those historic races neither ran as quickly again. Perhaps the effort on the Boston course on those 2 days was the factor that initiated the Central Governor Theory proposed by Noakes that others have already alluded.

LOL! Deleting what I wrote is not the same as refuting it. Like the other poster said, he just stayed healthy. I dont know him and can never vouch for him but arguing on results does not make your point.

Outlier... wrote:

Not the name I used last time wrote:

"By far" an outlier? Let me guess ...

... some people just last longer than others. It happens in every sport

Eliminating the inner part of your post yields the answer. An outlier is someone different than the norm. Rupp has longevity, and extreme training, and has avoided the typical injuries. Rupp would be an outlier because he has three areas above the norm for high-level runners. Not one or two, but three.

LOL .... You have no clue what an outlier is. You have absolutely nothing of value to contribute, but you think "Rupp running and training hard, avoiding injury, and a long career that can only get longer" is absolutely normal. Very simple; It isn't. It's an outlier, or PEDs, take your choice.