SERIOUS DISCUSSION ONLY - Ryan Hall, Albert Salazar, Alan Webb, and Fatigue

Slopenguinrunner wrote:

Noakes also believed that those who lasted the longest weren't always focused on the marathon. They would at least alternate between track and XC racing and marathon training.

agreed, always thought it was a mistake for Ryan to specialize in marathons..

A good overview of overtraining and consequent collapse is here:

and

From the first,

"OTS appears to be a maladapted response to excessive exercise without adequate rest, resulting in perturbations of multiple body systems (neurologic, endocrinologic, immunologic) coupled with mood changes."

From the second,

"the status of possible markers for the detection of OTS: Currently, several markers (hormones, performance tests, psychological tests, and biochemical and immune markers) are used, but none of them meet all the criteria to make their use generally accepted."

Check out a triathlon take on it:

Joe Friel used to have a document on his website which has now vanished, at

It was funny,

"To accomplish this amazing feat you had to do too much training with too little rest, too

much anaerobic training with too little aerobic and strength base, eat inadequately, try to

train normally despite excessive psychological stress, or some combination of several of

these. Less than one-tenth of one percent of the general population is capable of attaining

such a feat. You’re an exceptional person to have done it. Congratulations!"

+2

I'd just add, as another poster has, that this is nothing unique to running.

Look at Lebron James in basketball. He's still *close* to at the top of his game, but not exactly the tour de force that Steph Curry is for Golden State.

Contrast that with Michael Jordan, who left the NBA for a couple years (staying active with baseball, but presumably saving some legs in him) and then came back with his competitive fire as hot as ever.

Look at bands that have a couple awesome albums and then flame out (consider the Strokes, which arguably kicked of a generation of guitar-driven, '80s-infused indie bands last decade but couldn't really build upon that -- considerable -- achievement).

I do believe there's something enormous to be said for rest, periodization, mixing things up for the body and mind (whether through different training techniques, taking time off, switching up events, etc.) that is just naturally suited to humans.

Kale is healthy, but I don't eat it every night for 15 years.

Ben True could also be instructive here -- for years he mixed up distance running with cross-country skiing. He even gave up running to focus on the latter. Now, he's back in the running saddle (where he excelled as a high schooler and collegiate) and is running with the best in the world.

I don't think elite runners are destined to have a short shelf life. But I do think that ignoring the body's need for mixing things up, for recovery, for moderation is essential to staying at the top of one's game.

youth.in.revolt wrote:

edward teach wrote:

You have to change stimuli over time, give the human body new training to adapt to, then go back to previous training after a while and try to do it faster. There is periodization and longer term cycles of multiple competition cycles, but the human body doesn't wear out. This is bunk science like doctors saying mankind had a limited number of heart beats.

+1

Hold on, though, good thing you highlighted this out of the wall of text because the last line is wrong- no matter how you want to discuss it, mankind will absolutely have a limited number of heart beats. I don't know how you would think otherwise.

Coebra wrote:

Hold on, though, good thing you highlighted this out of the wall of text because the last line is wrong- no matter how you want to discuss it, mankind will absolutely have a limited number of heart beats. I don't know how you would think otherwise.

Point taken. Was looking to highlight rest of paragraph bc I think the important question to all of this is how one builds a longer, sustainable career -- rather than flame out while rivals continue at high levels for another 5, 10 years

I am 76 and I have been running competitively for more than 60 years, averaging some 10 races a year (mostly trail, road and hill races, with a half marathon distance typical, and additionally some cross country ski races). My performances have not significantly declined for the last ten years or so. I only rarely dip under seven minute miles. My experience makes me highly skeptical that you only have so many competitive miles.

[quote]oldtimer234 wrote: I have always believed that you only have so many competitive miles in you. You either burn physically or mentally, but once it hits you are basically done competing.quote]

I am 76 and I have been running competitively for more than 60 years, averaging some 10 races a year (mostly trail, road and hill races, with a half marathon distance typical, and additionally some cross country ski races). My performances have not significantly declined for the last ten years or so. I only rarely dip under seven minute miles. My experience makes me highly skeptical that you only have so many competitive miles.

[quote]oldtimer234 wrote: I have always believed that you only have so many competitive miles in you. You either burn physically or mentally, but once it hits you are basically done competing.quote]

another interesting read on overtraining, Phoebe Wright,

http://phe800.blogspot.com/p/bio.html?m=1

Whilst at nothing like the level of athletes this thread is about (I ran 3.44 for 1500m), my performance nosedived in a similar way from 30 onwards (although tbh things were starting to go wrong from about 27). Started training at 14, and everything was done hard. Almost overnight I lost the ability to recover from training and everything became a struggle. Race performances were just atrocious. Despite several long complete tests I've never been able to do anything I consider proper training again. If I try I'm immediately exhausted, continually sore, and unable to sleep at night. I'm now 40 and happy if I can jog 30 mins every other day. Keep thinking I'd like to do some masters events but suspect that as soon as I start setting goals I'll be in trouble again.

interestingly the issue seems running specific. Can do hard intervals on the bike or lift heavy with no problems at all. This really mystifies me

crazy/insane wrote:

There is no mystery here. 150 miles a week and insane interval workouts will make you a great runner, but your days are numbered. Far more runners have followed this same path.

They accomplished great things over a few years only to have their careers shortened by the same thing that made it great. Read "On a Cold Clear Day" by Frank Murphy. The story of Buddy Edelen. Basically was the Alberto of the 60's. Inspired by the US pour showing in Rome 1960, he was a world beater and marathon record holder peaking over a two year period only to break down and finish 6th at the 1964 Olympics..... then drop off the map.

Bullshite.

You lazy whiners are inventing rationalizations so you can train at a mediocre level.

You don't know anything about these guys. It could have been the drug regimen that down regulated receptors, the crappy lifestyle choices, etc

Fascinating topic

I think the burn-out has to by physical. These guys were all so gifted, that even if they had checked out mentally they'd still be nationally competitive just going through the motions. When someone that good completely falls off the map it's more than just a lack of commitment.

I think these guys had an ability to mentally override and push through training fatigue that most of us (outliers ourselves in this regard) can't even imagine. It led to short term adaptations and fantastic results, but was unsustainable past a certain point.

fred wrote: You don't know anything about these guys. It could have been the drug regimen that down regulated receptors, the crappy lifestyle choices, etc

Hey, we are talking about Ryan Hall, not known for his "crappy lifestyle choices" or for his drug regimen.

Love it when elite runners try to claim they have no innate talent for running and got to elite status through hard work and perseverance. No Phoebe, you were just under trained in HS.

ggilder wrote:

fred wrote: You don't know anything about these guys. It could have been the drug regimen that down regulated receptors, the crappy lifestyle choices, etc

Hey, we are talking about Ryan Hall, not known for his "crappy lifestyle choices" or for his drug regimen.

Wrong. He's putting muscle milk into all his meals without having the stuff analyzed for chromium, estrogen receptor stimulators, etc. etc.

" in 2010 when Hall was diagnosed with an underactive thyroid" What year did his performances start dropping off? How do you know it isn't the thyroid problem? What thyroid drugs is he on, and what effects are they having on his body.

Unless you know all the values for his thyroid status, and how the hormones are reacting with the receptors, you are inventing imaginary reasons for his drop off in performance.

And the guy lives in a fantasy world. He can make statements about his reality, but it doesn't mean he's not full of baloney.

That's why he needed a coach, to cut through the crap.

Steve Magness:

"But the REAL reason bodybuilders and people use it is simple. Its NOT to enhance performance.

Its because taking Testosterone and/or HGH severely impacts the thyroid, making you temporarily hypothyroid.

You can see that in the two studies below.

http://ajs.sagepub.com/content/15/4/357.short

http://psy2.ucsd.edu/~mgorman/Daly.pdf

Both studies found that with taking either testosterone or HGH, your TSH levels were elevated. So in order to keep order in their hormonal systems they took thyroid. In fact, look towards Major League Baseball and you can find an incidence of this in 2010."

Definitely adrenal fatigue! Those that have Adrenal issues for whatever reason extreme physical, emotional or mental stress find it very hard to recover from and can an extend rest to recover from.

Adrenal fatigue can shut down the thyroid as well as the sex hormones.

Side note - I saw him this past summer in Flagstaff and he was scary thin. I don't think I have seen too many competitive athletes that thin. He may have also been undereating as well while trying to run at a high level and say in racing shape. That is a huge stressor on the endocrine system.

Back in the 70's, 80's and 90's for marathoners, it was common talk, from accomplished runner to beginner, that when you did really well in the marathon, that race might have been your body's peak. Sure, you could have trained better, and more often, or shaved off ounces or a few pounds from your body. But to get to that peak performance, and beyond- you could not always expect that. Derek Clayton, the former wr holder from Australia was an example. After he ran his 2:08:33 he said he never felt the same. No matter how hard he trained (52 min for 10 miles on hills, plus speed work twice a week), he realized that it just wasn't there. True, athletes in the current group of marathoners are on a different level. But that level may be subject to this same kind of reality. You only have one or two great marathons in you.

crazy/insane wrote:

There is no mystery here. 150 miles a week and insane interval workouts will make you a great runner, but your days are numbered. Far more runners have followed this same path.

They accomplished great things over a few years only to have their careers shortened by the same thing that made it great. Read "On a Cold Clear Day" by Frank Murphy. The story of Buddy Edelen. Basically was the Alberto of the 60's. Inspired by the US pour showing in Rome 1960, he was a world beater and marathon record holder peaking over a two year period only to break down and finish 6th at the 1964 Olympics..... then drop off the map.

Wasn't Buddy's decline due to sciatica?

Average PR of a top 100 10k runner is 23 years old.

I don't think most people can run at a high level for that long and peoples top speed is usually found in early 20s.

There are exceptions (Farah, Meb, and Lagat come to mind), but generally speaking your best years as a runner should be 20-28 years old.

In America all these coaches (whether it be high school or college) always talk about saving an athlete for the future...suggesting that their peak years are in their late twenties to mid thirties. For most runners at the top of our sport this is false (just look at the data).

As a high school coach I think it is critical that we realize that the window for our best athletes to compete at a world level may be much younger than some have anticipated.

Consider Jim Ryun, Alan Webb, and even Ryan Hall. They all ran their best marks by age 25 or sooner.

Also check out this list

http://www.alltime-athletics.com/m_10kok.htm

10k all time list

1. Bekele 26:17 age 23

2. Geb 26:22 age 25

3. Tergat 26:27 age 28

4. Kemboi 26:30 age 19

5. Negera 26:30 age 21

6. Kogo 26:35 age 20

7. Koech 26:36 age 28

8. Tadese 26:37 age 24

9. Hissou 26:38 age 24

10. Hassan 26:38 age 22

11. Sihine 26:39 age 21

12. Kiprop 26:39 age 19

13. Wanjiru 26:41 age 18

14. Rotich 26:43 age 21

15. Rupp 26:44 age 28

16. Farah 26:46 age 28

-----

youngest 18

oldest 28

----

Why would we expect Ryan Hall or Salazar to be any different?

We shouldn't. Also we should start training more aggressively (such as higher volume) at a younger age if we want people to start medaling.

adfasfdsfdsf wrote:

Everyone in this thread is a complete idiot and has no idea what is going on.

The clues are:

"Adrenal fatigue" / chronic fatigue-like symptoms

exercise intolerance

Possibly related to exogenous hormone use

Lack of modulation in training

Clearly a physiological problem

and I'll leave it at that. Let's see if any sleuths can figure it out.

My guess would be that there are different scenarios. In some cases there might be "accelerated aging" due to years of high physiological stress (and probably high cortisol) like others in this thread have mentioned. Look at how the US presidency accelerates aging for a clear and visible example. Or look up what salmon have to do to swim upstream, what happens to their adrenal glands in the process and what happens once they reach their goal and spawn.

I suspect that others have an overtraining syndrome that might be mechanistically similar to chronic fatigue syndrome. Unfortunately we don't know the pathophysiology and this too is clearly not a single entity. There are endocrine elements but it seems to be more than a simple endocrine disorder. We have to better understand how the brain works, particularly regions like the insula that are the endpoint for efferent autonomic pathways and generate representations of subjective feeling states.