Darkness, either you are being really disingenuous (as Mark Pilja said. And Mark, I appreciate you agreeing with me) here, OR…..you are being ignorant. And I really don’t mean ignorant in a particularly insulting way, just literally: you are ignoring and/or are unaware of the implications of what you are saying. We are NOT twisting your words around. To prove I am right, let’s review:
The initial question was:
"Will you accuse Craig Mottram of doping if.... he continues improving and slices maybe 5-10 seconds off his 5km pb?"
YOU responded:
"I would "doubt" any performer that went more than 20 seconds faster than Kunze, Mamede and Henry Rono."
There it is black and white. OK, so let’s take a look at the performers who don’t pass your litmus test of being above suspicion of drug use, and who you therefore have "doubts" about-
In the 5k, of the 3 you mention, Kunze is the slowest (13:10 PR). So, basically, based on you statement, anyone who has run 12:50 or under, you doubt is clean. And the people who have done that? Drumroll……
ALL AFRICAN.
And suppose we relaxed your standard a bit (since it does appear that you feel even more than the sub 12:50 guys are doped), and we suspect anyone under 12:55. Again, except for Dieter Bauman (who already has one positive drug result), we have ALL AFRICAN runners under 12:55. And then lastly, you stated:
"And it isn't cynical to suspect doping when someone can run 12.5 laps at 61.20 a lap." And what does that equation come out to?? 12:45. And of course only Africans are under 12:45. So no matter how you make your drug-cut off (12:45, 12:50, 12:55), if one looks at your initial post, YOU ARE ONLYACCUSING AFRICAN RUNNERS OF DOPING. So protest all you like, THAT is what you did write (intentionally or not).
But later you actually had the nerve to write:
"Your other contention is that I say that the WRs dropped because the Africans took drugs and the rest of the world didn't. I don't think that and I didn't write that. Find anything resembling what you say I wrote and I will send you $10 for every time I wrote it. Every instance. No BS." OK, I see where you are trying to find a sneaky way out here: I guess it is true that you never DIRECTLY said "the rest of the world DIDN’T " take drugs….., but you clearly DID contend that DRUGS ARE THE REASON FOR THE BIG DROP IN THE 5 & 10k WR’s, and the overall depth of great times in those events. And since 99% of these great "unbelievable"(to you) times are being done by African runners, it is crystal clear you were accusing many of the Africans of being dopers. And since very few white runners are performing such hard-to-believe times, one can ONLY CONCLUDE that either A) you think white runners are not taking drugs as much as the Africans, or B) you think the white runners are taking lots of drugs too, but all the talented white runners have stopped running and/or it is ONLY THE UNTALENTED WHITES who are doing drugs, and therefore that is why we are not seeing a spate of white runners running below your clean-time-thresholds.
Yes, tortured logic that is, but that is the ONLY way you can say that you never accused Africans of being on drugs more than white runners. In other words, you are being really absurd, dishonest, playing games, or call it what you like, but NOT being straightforward at all.
More examples of this dishonesty of yours. You wrote:
"Then came the 90's and the 10k WR is 60 secs faster, the 5k WR is 29 secs faster and the 3k WR is 12 secs faster than the standards that Rono set that 6, 7, and 8 years respectively, and were only improved incrementally when they were broken (with the exception of Moorcroft's 13:00.42) So, what was it that allowed 10k's 40 seconds faster than Barrios and Ondieki? 50-80 seconds faster than Vainio (who DID DOPE), Cova, Viren, Rono, Salazar, Schildhauer and all-time great Lopes? 5k's 30 seconds faster than World #1's in the 80's like Mamede, Kunze, and Rono? The 10k is 25 laps. If you are 50 seconds better than the earth's fastest men just 10 years before, what gives? What made you improve 50 SECONDS on Antibo, Barrios, Mei, Mamede and all the world's fastest just 10 years before? If it is something BESIDES drugs, then what kind of thing would not allow a proportional improvement at all distances?"
Tell me Darkness, if that is NOT accusing the Africans of drug use, THEN WHAT THE HELL IS THE POINT OF IT????? WHO…..I repeat WHO is it that is running 60 seconds faster in the 10k, 29 seconds faster in the 5k, and 12 seconds faster in the 3k than Henry Rono ran. WHO??? I will tell you who. Give or take a second, only three men: Komen, Gebreselassie, Bekele. THAT’s it. So if those are the times raising your suspicion, then THOSE ARE THE GUYS you think are on drugs. And who else is close to running that fast?? Again, ONLY Africans. So stop beating around the bush and just say it! You think the Africans are on drugs. The simple fact of the matter is, there are just VERY FEW whites running the types of times (faster than all of your heroes of yesteryear) that raise suspicions in you. So CLEARLY (to everyone on here but you), you are not insinuating very many whites in your accusations (maybe Mottram, Kennedy, and Bauman, but that’s it).
To prove it ONE more time, you also wrote:
"Nobody moved the record(10k) that much (Barrios a little, ONdieki a little) until everyone started using the blood drugs."
Who, praytell, has run faster in the 10k than Barrios and Ondieki??????????? 29 runners have run faster than Barrios in the 10K. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM IS AFRICAN (with 99% of them hailing from East Africa). So, please, please, PRETTY F’N PLEASE, TELL what you’re the above italicized statement means, if it does NOT mean that you think most of the top Africans are on drugs, and that THAT (African runners using EPO and the like) is THE REASON for the huge drop in 5 and 10k times in the last 15 years!! TEll ME. IT IS THE WHOLE THESIS YOU HAVE BUILT! But then you actually write in reply(more or less): ‘no, no, no, I NEVER said or meant THAT! What an outrageous claim to make.’
Either you are changing your tune now, or didn’t realize what exactly the words you wrote earlier meant, or you are operating on some different level of logic that does not exist for the rest of us.