Junior Kenyan 800m runners

Please explain wrote:

Sub 47 for the 400m is nowhere near the quality of a sub 1:45 for the 800m. Sub 1:45 is comfortably inside the Olympic qualifying mark and a world class (top 20) time for most given years.

Also, most 46 second 400m runners are not of the 800m type, they don't and won't ever have the endurance to run the 800. They aren't being burnt out, they are just better at the 400m.

Brandon McBride, Windsor, Canada, born 1994

400 Metres 45.89 Medellín 23 AUG 2013

800 Metres 1:45.35 Walnut, CA 19 APR 2014

Great question and it only really hit me yesterday when I looked back at the 1500 pb's (or lack there of) of the guys that have won in the last 60 odd years, how many 400/800 types have won. The move to only 3 rounds (with a day off before the final) has changed things. Cruz had to run 1:45.66-1:44.82-1:43.82-1:43.00 4 days in a row in 1984!

What we really have these day's is 800m specialists, that don't really venture outside there event. Sure we see Rudisha run the off 400 here and there, but it's pretty rare to see any of them running a 1500m. You be foolish to think that Rudisha couldn't run around 3:32-3:33 if he ran a 1500m when in 1:40.91 shape.

If that is the case (3:32) then why would you run a 1500m and finish mid pack in Monaco? Better off running a low key 400m somewhere and use it as training.

I'm sure Vent will have some elaborate formula, but if you want to run 1:41, I think you need the following:

45.00 and 3:33

46.00 and 3:31

47:00 and 3:29

48:00 and 3:27

Just looking at that makes you realize how hard running 1:40.91 is! Imagine Centro with 46.00 speed!

I see you have posted McBride's prs but I am unsure why. He is not a 46/47 second 400m runner or a junior.

That is interesting. Do you think the 3:28/47s runner exists? Can people be trained to run sub 1:42 and 3:30 at the same time?

I know Coe boasted pbs of 1:41 and 3:29, but he ran them a few years apart. Nobody has come along since with that level of specialty in both events either.

3:32 for Rudisha would be good but it will never win any medals.

ironside wrote:

Jeb Clampett is 100% wrong! Who told Clampett Kenyans don't do intervals? David Rudisha largely follows the writings of Peter Coe & David Martin, PhD. Clampett is wrong in regard to 800m and Lydiard. Prior to US runners following Lydiard, we in US used to send 45+ 400m men as our Olympic 800m runners. Lydiard's philosophy: all 800m to Marathoners run 100 miles per week. Too many US university XC coaches are killing the speed of our 800m men during xc season.

Agree

There are lot of sponsored junior training camps in Kenya . The icentive to lie about age starts in attempt to get in these

The dude who holds the marathon record also just kinda came out of no where. No background or proven pedigree over the mile / 5K / 10K in his earlier years. Just a story about how he worked hard on a farm. Maybe it's genuine, maybe not but either way, there is something to be learned here.

No wonder athletics is mostly regarded as a joke of a sport.

JRinaldi wrote:I'm sure Vent will have some elaborate formula, but if you want to run 1:41, I think you need the following:

45.00 and 3:33

46.00 and 3:31

47:00 and 3:29

48:00 and 3:27

Just looking at that makes you realize how hard running 1:40.91 is! Imagine Centro with 46.00 speed!

i don't think the "formula" route is way to go here

you have to treat a 800 as a stand-alone event nowdays & train only for that in order to medal as without a peak Rudy, the finals will come down to a 25+ kick in a 1'45 or even a 1'44

you have to be a damn fast 800 guy with 45+ speed

you don't need over-distance clockings as you are highly unlikely to get within 1/2 dozen seconds of your theoretical 1500 ability off just pure 800 training ( Rudy theoretical of 3'26+ in his london shape but unlikely to break 3'33 at the time )

anyhows, just for academic interest, your 400/800 times are actually quite a long way off showing how much better the 1500s have to be ( & so why it's not worth bothering with that route to 1'41+ if you want to be a 800 guy primarily )

45.00 and 3:33 ->1'42.38

46.00 and 3:31 ->1'42.77

47:00 and 3:29 ->1'43.16

48:00 and 3:27 ->1'43.55

( the last fiigure reminds me somewhat of morceli )

one useful thing from that list is by using same integer differences, the fastest 800 comes from quicker the 400

that to me indicates 400 speed route is the way to fastest possible 800 & not to go for 1500 endurance

speed is king !

JRinaldi wrote:I'm sure Vent will have some elaborate formula, but if you want to run 1:41, I think you need the following:

45.00 and 3:33

46.00 and 3:31

47:00 and 3:29

48:00 and 3:27

Just looking at that makes you realize how hard running 1:40.91 is! Imagine Centro with 46.00 speed!

i apologise with posting :

45.00 and 3:33 -> 1'42.38

46.00 and 3:31 -> 1'42.77

47:00 and 3:29 -> 1'43.16

48:00 and 3:27 -> 1'43.55

( the last fiigure reminds me somewhat of morceli )

without more thought

i like you & respect you

apologies Sir

i shouda remembered that 1s difference over 400 shoud be considered as 1500/400 = 3.75s difference over 1500

->

your

45.00 and 3:33

46.00 and 3:31

47:00 and 3:29

48:00 and 3:27

shouda been prelim :

45.00 and 3'33.00 ->1'12.93, 1'42.38, 2'12.95

46.00 and 3'29,25 ->1'13.51, 1'42.28, 2'11.98

47:00 and 3:25.50 ->1'14.09, 1'42.18, 2'11.02

48:00 and 3:21.75 ->1'14.67, 1'42.08, 2'10.05

similar conclusion to before

if you have 48.00 speed, you will never crack 1'42 even if your theoretical 1500 is 3'21-high !!!

400 speed is King for 800 !!!

it means the "actual" 400 abilities of 1500/milers at their peak v listed, if listed, are utter nonsense, probably off by

1s+++

Paralysis by analysis: one cannot make a reliable prediction of 800m success from 1500m or one mile. One CAN find correlation from 400m performances. ALL sub-1:44 800 metres men have 400m PRs from 44.26 to 47.5. There are 124 sub-1:44 men. Their 1500 metres PRs range from 3:29+ to 3:50+

correction: 3:26+ to 3:50+ 1500 metres men for sub-1:44 800 metres men

Symmonds ran 1:42.95 (August 9, 2012) and 1:43.03 (2013) with a 47.45 (July 25, 2012) and 3:34.55 (2013).

jjjjjjj wrote:Symmonds ran 1:42.95 (August 9, 2012) and 1:43.03 (2013) with a 47.45 (July 25, 2012) and 3:34.55 (2013).

not sure where you want to go

go tweet him

i saw tweet from him in run-up to games saying he reckoned his irish 47.4pb in cold, windy conditions was worth into 46s at games peak...

ironside wrote:one cannot make a reliable prediction of 800m success from 1500m or one mile

no

if you have enough info, you can make a damn good prediction

obviously, you cannot do so juxtaposed

To ventolin^3: No what? All sub-1:44 guys are sub-4:00 1500 metres guys. That tells one nothing! All sub-1:42.25 800 metres men are also sub-47 400 metres men. There are sub-3:27 1500 meters men whom never could run sub-1:44 800 metres. There is a strong correlation with 400 metres speed and 800 metres speed. Correlation gauging 800 metres from 1500 metres is so weak, it's not worth analyzing.

Oh, so Tweets are now official times.

If you know the history of a runner and what type of runner he is, whether he has more speed or strength, you can make a rough estimate of a 1500m or 800m time based upon the other.

There is much room for error though.

This thread started as a comparison and contrast between US & African 800 metres programs. This thread devolved into defending a US 30+ year old 3:36 800/1500 man. US won four Olympic gold in a row in 800 metres 1936 through 1956. In that era, with heavy leather shoes, heavy 1/4in. or 1/2in. spikes and dirt tracks, all three men were sub-47 400 metres men. 2015, there were 14 sub-3:32 1500 metres men, twelve Africans, Nick Willis and Matt Centrowitz. US 800 metres Olympic gold can occur but will only come from a 400/800 sub-47 400 metres man not from a 800/1500 man.

WTF now wrote:Oh, so Tweets are now official times.

eh ??

get a clue

nick said his 47.4 in windy dublin wouda been quicker with better weather & he expected to be in faster speed shape for games

ironside wrote:All sub-1:44 guys are sub-4:00 1500 metres guys

not necessarily

All sub-1:42.25 800 metres men are also sub-47 400 metres men

likely but not definite

There are sub-3:27 1500 meters men whom never could run sub-1:44 800 metres

unlikely

komen looked in 3'26+ shape in his ridiculous 3'46pb where he ran huge amount extra on bends & ran ruinous sprint on 1st lap to catch up

he was in very likely 3'26+ shape that day but i doubt couda broken 1'44

he is only example of such, but i reckon mo may be similar nowdays

Correlation gauging 800 metres from 1500 metres is so weak, it's not worth analyzing

no

you can get a good idea of 800 ability for a 1500 guy if you have watched enough of their 1500s both fast tt ones & tactical kicking ones