2,500 miles run between Turkey Trot 2014 and 2015 - ZERO improvement. W. T. F.

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  • queryquery
    4 years ago 11/26/2015 5:44pm CST
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    None. They're been base miles really, no real workouts. But don't people improve off mileage alone? That's about 50mpw for the entire year. Last year I ran about 1,700 total, the year before 1,300. I would say that on average I ran my miles at 7:15 pace in the past year. Sometimes I do long runs 18-20 miles at 6:45, sometimes 7:30.

    Last year's 5k Trot was mid-18's, this years was exactly the same. My PR set about 1.5 years ago was an 18:04. I realize I'm slow, but shouldn't mileage alone basically propel me to at least a 17 flat? Was really hoping to crack the 17s today as I don't really race 5ks, so wanted to see what all this running has done for my times. First mile about 5:40, then next ones were a bit slower than 6.

    What gives? Is it simply a lack of workouts? No weight gain, my records indicate that I weigh within a pound of what I weighed last year, 12% bf. I ran a trail 50k earlier this year and easily took first with about a 6:50 pace.
  • Keepitreal
    4 years ago 11/26/2015 5:53pm CST
    re: queryquery
    Forum Index
    Hmm, that is highly disappointing indeed. Perhaps an off day but I suspect you could be what is known in the business as a cart horse - can work all day but just no speed.

    Or you're lack of quality work is showing. Your paces are fine for long workouts but running 3 x sub 6 min miles requires more intense work.

    I would suggest you look at incorporating some intervals if you want to get near breaking 17.

    Good luck
  • queryquery
    4 years ago 11/26/2015 5:58pm CST
    re: Keepitreal
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    Perhaps that's it. I improved my 50k time substantially from about a 4:15 to closer to a 3:30. Really seem to have no issue running for long periods and on nice weather days when I get in the zone I can cruise 20-22 miles at 6:45 or better without much issue. But did literally zero interval workouts or anything all year, except a few fun/impromptu 3-5 mile xc races.
  • AKMarmoset
    registered
    4 years ago 11/26/2015 5:59pm CST
    re: Keepitreal
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    50mpw is low mileage - if you increase by 50% or actually run some workouts you will improve
  • Speed work
    4 years ago 11/26/2015 5:59pm CST
    re: queryquery
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    Your problem is probably a lack of workouts that work on lactate buffering. Aerobically you are probably good but you need some anaerobic work to get your body used to high lactic acid levels. A touch of sharpening ..

    The good news is you've done most of the work. A few week of specific intervals and you should improve rapidly. Infact the race you just did probably help a lot on its own.

    7x1k @sub18 5kpace with 1min rests would get you on track for sub 18
  • Jolly Rodger
    4 years ago 11/26/2015 7:40pm CST
    re: Speed work
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    Stop running 5Ks and run marathons instead. If 3:30 is your legit time on a TRAIL 50K, you should be mid-2:40's for a marathon.

    Of course you either a troll a complete genetic mutant, but I will add that running 7:00 pace for the bulk of you miles is too fast unless you are in the 2:30's for marathon and under 16 for 5K.
  • Quality and quantity
    4 years ago 11/26/2015 7:46pm CST
    re: queryquery
    Forum Index
    You need speed too dude. I run mud 17s off 50mpw in the 8-9 min/mile range but with speed, hills, and other quality workouts.
  • I have a theory too
    registered
    4 years ago 11/26/2015 7:48pm CST
    re: queryquery
    Forum Index
    [email protected]:15/m is 6 hours a week.

    Puny volume.
  • nikemanesque
    4 years ago 11/26/2015 8:09pm CST
    re: queryquery
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    Stop running, start training. Every day needs a purpose. You'll be a 17:30 guy in no time.
  • rexthebex
    registered
    4 years ago 11/26/2015 8:23pm CST
    re: queryquery
    Forum Index
    queryquery wrote:

    Perhaps that's it. I improved my 50k time substantially from about a 4:15 to closer to a 3:30. Really seem to have no issue running for long periods and on nice weather days when I get in the zone I can cruise 20-22 miles at 6:45 or better without much issue. But did literally zero interval workouts or anything all year, except a few fun/impromptu 3-5 mile xc races.

    The best way to ruin your times at shorter distances is to run ultras.
  • one year of base training
    4 years ago 11/26/2015 8:31pm CST
    re: nikemanesque
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    Two years ago when I was 48 I broke 19 minutes one time for 5k. When I was 49, I ran 3 ultras at the beginning of the year and just put in as many miles as I could which ended up at 3,000 for the year. I ran a few 5ks towards the end of summer and fall with my fastest being 19:22 and most in the 19:50s. That was a huge drop-off from the year before. This year at 50 it was all about speed and I averaged 35 miles a week. I ran 18:40 5k and 38:45 10k.

    That's what specificity is all about. You are doing great training for a 50k but poor training for a 5k. As the above poster said, if you lined up 5 or 6 5ks over the next couple months and just did one other faster workout each week, you would see a great improvement.
  • Other options
    4 years ago 11/26/2015 8:36pm CST
    re: queryquery
    Forum Index
    Run more. 2,500 isn't much. Try 4,000+ plus workouts etc.
  • Just Another LRC Idiot
    4 years ago 11/26/2015 8:51pm CST
    re: I have a theory too
    Forum Index
    I have a theory too wrote:

    [email protected]:15/m is 6 hours a week.

    Puny volume.

    +1.
    Try to run at least 10 hrs / week
    You can either run more miles, or run your miles more slowly, or (this is the best option) both.
  • theJeff
    registered
    4 years ago 11/26/2015 9:23pm CST
    re: queryquery
    Forum Index
    You may lack mental toughness.
  • Edward Teach
    registered
    4 years ago 11/26/2015 10:58pm CST
    re: queryquery
    Forum Index
    people do not improve from base training alone, with the exception of growing children. 50 miles a week isn't that much, but with proper workouts you would improve on that mileage. But it sounds like you are focusing on longer events, ie your 50k, and not on your 5k time. To improve your turkey trot time, you need to do significant running, FASTER than race pace for 5k, this is stuff like 800s and 1000s, maybe even 400s-600s. There is no guarantee you could still run a fast 50k if you did 2 workouts like these twice a week.
  • ironside
    4 years ago 11/26/2015 11:09pm CST
    re: queryquery
    Forum Index
    One-hundred+ men have raced Marathon sub-2:07. No one has raced three sub-2:07 Marathons in one calendar year. You may have not recovered from 50K race. You have to decide if you care about your 50K time or do you care about your 5K time? To max your 5K potential, you do need to do interval workouts: 800s/1200s and maybe some shorter interval workouts. If you want to max your 50K, don't worry about intervals
  • Iimited sample
    4 years ago 11/26/2015 11:31pm CST
    re: queryquery
    Forum Index
    Lots of good advice here so far- but make sure you consider weather. I ran same Turkey Trot as last year- 34 degrees and no wind (last year) vs. 67 deg, high humidity and steady 15 mph winds- huge difference in performance due to weather alone.

    In other words- you might need a few more data points before you evaluate the effects of your training.
  • 20 Second PR
    registered
    4 years ago 11/27/2015 12:00am CST
    re: queryquery
    Forum Index
    People do improve off base mileage, but not in the 5k without workouts. You can't run 7:30 miles and expect to become more efficient at 5:45 pace. The good news is you're well prepared for a breakthrough.

    Let me give an example. Last year I took some time off, then came back with 3 months of base training, no real workouts. I ran a flat 5k and was slow as shit, dying the last mile. Six weeks later after speedwork twice a week I ran a 10k at a faster pace than the 5k and still felt sluggish.

    It doesn't take much, but do speedwork! Or pick a longer distance to race.
  • Doclove
    4 years ago 11/27/2015 8:31am CST
    re: queryquery
    Forum Index
    'I ran a trail 50k earlier this year and easily took first with about a 6:50 pace.'

    1/10 only the gullible above got taken in
  • Doclove
    4 years ago 11/27/2015 8:38am CST
    re: queryquery
    Forum Index
    'I ran a trail 50k earlier this year and easily took first with about a 6:50 pace.'

    1/10 only the gullible above got taken in