Why do I suck at the marathon?

Haddite,

I really appreciate the advice and I must say you have intrigued me. Let's say I have a goal race in mind that is 6 months away (probably a half marathon, want to take a break from the full.) I'd like to try your "running at 70% max HR pace to lift my aerobic threshold" approach as I have never done anything like that before. Should I go run an all out effort today (I just ran a marathon 10 days ago) to find my max HR? How many weeks (months?) out of that 6 month period should I spend doing running at 70% max HR? Would all my running be at that 70% HR pace, or would I also incorporate some "steady" running (Mar pace + 1 minute) like UK observer had mentioned? Should I also incorporate some strides during the base period or would that "cancel out" the aerobic running that I'm doing?

One other point I forgot to mention is after a layoff from running, an FT runner loses their aerobic ability in spades.

This is a great test for a runner to know what type of fiber type they predominantly possess:

When I am injured and take time off, I think nothing of going to the track once I am healthy and clicking off a :30 second 200. I hardly lose my speed. But if someone asked me to run a half marathon after a long layoff, I'd be like, "are you nuts!? I don't think I could run 5 miles, much less 13...!"

The opposite holds true for the ST runner.

So OP, after your layoff, super slow mileage and a nice long build up would have been key.

...Anyway, don't let me convince you it is all long slow slogs as it does require some faster work. The key is knowing what type of runs and at what paces. You will not find this knowledge in a book written for the masses.

You might not be ready to do a HR test yet. I usually want my runners to take 4 weeks before resuming training. But you might not be as beat up. If that's the case, I would hop in a 5k. Be as rested and well fueled as you can be and really try to max out from the 3 mile mark and in. See if you can peek at the HR at 3 miles and again right at the line. I usually get a reading about 2-4 beats below max for most people.

Hard to say how long it will take as everyone is different. And, no, it would not be all 70% work. Here are the steps I would take a runner through assuming a full year and a fall marathon. (I don't want to assign time frames as it can vary runner-to-runner)

AeT phase - In this phase we work at getting in lots of miles, Ideally we want to be able to run 60 minutes at 70% of max without the HR going up at all (no cardiac drift). (In marathon mode I might want this to be closer to 2 hours steady with no drift) We slowly begin to incorporate some slightly faster work with long steady type runs. Usually 2 x 15 minutes at 80%, 1 x 30, 2 x 20, 1 x 45, etc). What you will find is the pace these effort requires begins to speed up rather quickly. While 70% may have been 9 minute pace at first, within a month or two it might be 7:30-8 minutes.

When trying to improve AeT we always want to work at paces below (slower) than AeT.

LT --> V02 next we go thru a phase specifically designed to improve our LT (AnT). To do this we work at paces just below and slightly above (faster) than LT. LT for most is right about 92-93% of MaxHR. We start doing a little more track work but keep the intervals on the longer side like 3 x 2 miles, 4 x 1.5 miles, 5-6 x 2000. Always start these on the slower end (say 88%).

I usually start to incorporate some V02 max work after 4-6 weeks. 5 x 1 mile, 2x (4 x 1000), 5 x 1200. Start around half marathon pace for the first sessions and slowly work towards about 8k pace.

FT's need short rests to keep these intervals more aerobic. I KNOW you can run these at 5k pace and faster but that is NOT the purpose of these.

While this isn't the whole picture, it should get you going...

What I may be seeing is a lack of progression in your training. There are key workout days and these should be the focus of your week, not the overall mileage. The good news is you are trying to work in half marathon, marathon pace and quality long runs. My typical weeks in general are below. I've run from 2:49 -2:55 range in recent years running 17:30+ 5Ks.

Tuesday: Work range of pace from MP down to HMP. Start with 4-5 miles of reps but by your last big workouts you are doing 9, 10, 12 miles of reps. (3* 3 miles, 2*5 miles etc.)

Thursday: Work MP or even slightly slower than MP. 10-12 miles. This has to be by effort and not being a slave to pace targets.

Sunday: Quality long runs: By this I mean you don't run 8 min+ pace for 15 miles and then do 5 miles at 6:40. After the first few miles these need to be steady efforts slowly working your way down. This is a progression to work the threshold down. In my case, by my last 2 or 3 20 milers I'm ticking off 7:00-7:10 miles for much of the long run, finishing the last 5 miles working my way down to 6:30. Again, this has to be a progression and you can't hammer it.

Good luck. Lots can go wrong with marathon training but this is what has worked for me. No blowups in 6 attempts.

With regard to those long runs mentioned above...I've made the mistake of doing them every weekend towards the end of my marathon build up (going up to 23 progressive, 7:20-7:10 final 2@MP)

Now you may be able to get away with this but I probably over trained myself doing this and would now only do a quality LR every other week and swap it out for an easy LR . I suspect I'm slightly FT but my training partner eased to a 2:37 in London off of more aggressive LRs (he is ST) so bear this in mind

thegripper wrote:

why bother? wrote:

If he is more fast twitch, I don't know he won't answer the question about how fast he is. Then why bother with the marathon. It's a road to nowhere for a middle distance runner.

Not sure what you mean, I've listed all my PRs plus two seasons worth of training info. What more do you need to know from me?

How fast are you means how fast can you sprint? And if you are a faster runner, why bother trying to run 2.45 or whatever when you could be so much better at shorter distances?

OP, what did you do for carb loading pre race?

OP here. Giving this a bump after 4 years. Here's what I've been up to.

After my last marathon in 2015 I decided to just focus on 5K/10K/half marathons. Last year I got my 5K time down to 16:12 and managed a low 1:14 half marathon. After that half in 2018 I figured I would give the marathon another shot at the end of 2019. My training went well all year and I set a big 10K pr of 33:19 in the spring. I had an even bigger breakthough this fall, running 15:40 for 5K and a high 1:12 for the half marathon. I set a modest goal of simply breaking 2:40 in the marathon, which I figured should be easily attainable based on my recent half marathon performance.

Well, turns out I still suck at the marathon. I ran pretty even 6:05-6:10 splits through 20 miles and then started to fall apart. I went through 20 miles in about 2:02:40, then was reduced to 7-8 minute miles the rest of the way, finishing right at 2:48. Sure, it's an 8 minute PR from my 2:56 back in 2012, but you'd think if I can run a half marathon at 5:33 mile pace, 6:06 pace should be no problem for a marathon. I just don't get why I can't survive past 20 miles. I ran 80-90 miles per week most of this year, with 3 good 20 milers and even a 21 mile run leading up to the marathon. 2 weeks before the marathon I ran 10 miles at 6:05 pace and it was no problem. Maybe I need to start experimenting with gels. Idk.

Congratulations. Now you don't suck at marathons. You can keep improving. You probably need runs longer than 20 miles.

That's what worked for me.

I've often wondered why almost no one trains at longer than the marathon distance for marathons. Most people seem to top out their long runs at 20-22 miles. When I was a good marathoner 30 years ago, that's what I did. But wouldn't a few training runs of 26-30 miles be helpful, both psychologically and for building marathon endurance?

OP, please lend some insight on my journey here:

https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=9728032&page=2

You and I sound similar as FT runners except youre a hell of a lot faster.

I just looked up my AeT which is supposed to be 135bpm based on my max heart rate. My easy runs are well above this and after reading through this thread I am worried that I've spent 2 months now not getting in the 'quality' marathon training because I have been running too fast. Thing is, my easy pace 7:10-7:50 feels slow. When I went on a 10 mile run at 9 minute pace with a friend I was freaking dying it was so slow. Just cant wrap my mind around how running so bloody slow is going to help me average 6:50 pace for my first marathon.

It's got to be the lack of fuel. The gels really aren't that bad or hard to do — bring them on your long runs and get in the swing of using them every 45 mins to an hour (some people would advise more). I am 2/2 on feeling like crap 20 miles in or so in my marathons, but my second one I kept pace (bad as I felt) and I think fueling/drinking helped a good bit.

More miles, more miles, more miles!

thegripper wrote:

So 70 to 80 mpw is not enough? At what mileage does marathon performance start to match 5k to half performance?

Not a troll, just clueless I guess.

For some it could be 70 to 80 mpw, for others it could be not until they are over 150 mpw. I'd focus on building up to 100 and try to run that consistently for a while.

I skimmed through most of the thread. Has your fueling been the same throughout these marathons?

Maybe you need to try going out +0:10-0:20/mile slower then negative splitting.

stil_kannonier wrote:

OP, please lend some insight on my journey here:

https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=9728032&page=2

You and I sound similar as FT runners except youre a hell of a lot faster.

I just looked up my AeT which is supposed to be 135bpm based on my max heart rate. My easy runs are well above this and after reading through this thread I am worried that I've spent 2 months now not getting in the 'quality' marathon training because I have been running too fast. Thing is, my easy pace 7:10-7:50 feels slow. When I went on a 10 mile run at 9 minute pace with a friend I was freaking dying it was so slow. Just cant wrap my mind around how running so bloody slow is going to help me average 6:50 pace for my first marathon.

I skimmed your thread. As others said, I'm sure you can improve a ton by simply (gradually) increasing your mileage. Varying the pace from day to day also helped me a lot. As others pointed out on this thread 4 years ago, I had some "holes" in my previous training, where I was either running really hard or really easy. Now I vary my pace/effort quite a bit and it's helped me increase my mileage and develop myself aerobically. Throughout the week I pretty much hit everything between 5:00 pace and 10:00 pace. Obviously much more easy miles than hard miles.

big HONKING birds wrote:

I skimmed through most of the thread. Has your fueling been the same throughout these marathons?

Maybe you need to try going out +0:10-0:20/mile slower then negative splitting.

Yeah I've just been drinking Gatorade at every aid station. For the marathon I just did I think the Gatorade was just the cheap powder stuff because it basically just tasted like water. So I think I definitely need to supplement with my own gels next time.

What kind of gel do you recommend? Also how do you carry them during the race?