WADA Report Live Thread

LTSTML wrote:

agip wrote:

weak reasoning.

First off, because the US has been catching its dopers for years. How do you think you know that Gatlin and Gay are dopers? because they were caught. By USADA, I think.

The Russians on the other hand hid and covered up and were caught doing so.

If the US were caught hiding and covering up then they would be banned too.

You aren't looking at this as a case of laws and rules - you are are basically saying, without proof, 'everyone dopes so don't scapegoat'

Right now IAAF and WADA have proof that the russian anti doping program was non compliant. So they might be banned. They have no such proof of any other nation.

laws and rules, man, not just 'feelings'

If you want just the facts, then here you go.

FACT: Russian agencies have been found to be non-compliant.

FACT: Some Russian athletes have been found to be non-compliant.

FACT: NOT all Russian athletes have been found to be non-compliant.

Just as it's absurd to think that no one in the U.S. is doping, it's also absurd to think that everyone in Russia is doping, even though the Russian number is apparently quite high. Therefore, any actions/sanctions/bans/etc. taken against Russia or Russians should NOT prevent un-accused athletes from competing.

I propose that until Russia gets its act together, Russian athletes should be tested directly by WADA or some other acceptably trustworthy agency, perhaps at the expense of Russia.

Mark Mendoza wrote:

agip wrote:

weak reasoning.

First off, because the US has been catching its dopers for years. How do you think you know that Gatlin and Gay are dopers? because they were caught. By USADA, I think.

The Russians on the other hand hid and covered up and were caught doing so.

If the US were caught hiding and covering up then they would be banned too.

You aren't looking at this as a case of laws and rules - you are are basically saying, without proof, 'everyone dopes so don't scapegoat'

Right now IAAF and WADA have proof that the russian anti doping program was non compliant. So they might be banned. They have no such proof of any other nation.

laws and rules, man, not just 'feelings'

But that's just it - the US has been caught "hiding and covering up". At least for the 1984 Games, it is well-established that the US cheated on a fairly centralized level.

And you are right - to some degree, I'm not looking at at as a case of laws and rules - because the Olympics are bigger than that. Kicking Russia out of the Olympics would be a big deal on an international relations level, especially in the face of what would appear, to many, to be large-scale hypocrisy. It could have repercussions in areas completely unrelated to track and field, or other sports. It's fine to argue that one must always follow the letter of the law, but on the other hand, if you end up taking actions that cause (directly or indirectly) human lives to be lost because you want your track stars to beat their rivals, it might seem like you're missing the larger picture.

And I can't help thinking that it doesn't just SEEM like a huge dose of hypocrisy - it IS hypocrisy. Given that we are almost certain that doping is rife everywhere, it is basically saying, look, OUR way of doping (free enterprise, market-based doping) is right. YOUR way of doping (organized, socialist-style doping) is wrong. Therefore, you don't get to play in the Olympics, whilst we reap all the benefits.

guy wearing slacks #3554679 wrote:

How would it "be a big deal on an international relations level"? WADA and IOC are not run by any single nation so there is no international relations to worry about from their perspective. For the US? The US isn't doing anything here.

Unless you mean for Russia because they've been caught systematically screwing the rest of the world over in athletic competition. Yes, for Russia this could be a very bad little bit on international relations.

The report is about the current state of the anti-doping process and who has been caught breaking the rules of that process. From what I understand, using your logic the Germans should be banned for their state-run program.

Mark Mendoza wrote:

But that's just it - the US has been caught "hiding and covering up". At least for the 1984 Games, it is well-established that the US cheated on a fairly centralized level.

And you are right - to some degree, I'm not looking at at as a case of laws and rules - because the Olympics are bigger than that. Kicking Russia out of the Olympics would be a big deal on an international relations level, especially in the face of what would appear, to many, to be large-scale hypocrisy. It could have repercussions in areas completely unrelated to track and field, or other sports. It's fine to argue that one must always follow the letter of the law, but on the other hand, if you end up taking actions that cause (directly or indirectly) human lives to be lost because you want your track stars to beat their rivals, it might seem like you're missing the larger picture.

And I can't help thinking that it doesn't just SEEM like a huge dose of hypocrisy - it IS hypocrisy. Given that we are almost certain that doping is rife everywhere, it is basically saying, look, OUR way of doping (free enterprise, market-based doping) is right. YOUR way of doping (organized, socialist-style doping) is wrong. Therefore, you don't get to play in the Olympics, whilst we reap all the benefits.

ScratchNSniff wrote:

So do you feel "sympathetic" to rapists who get caught and have to serve time while other get off scot-free? Becuase that is what dopers do- they rape the ethics of sport.

Maybe you feel also that the Catholic church got unfairly singled out for systematically covering up child abuse, when other groups are probably doing the same thing?

Clerk wrote:

I agree. I'm aware that, especially now, the politics are heavy. WADA is insulated from world affairs, IAAF, less so, and IOC not at all, so we'll see who chooses to do what.

I am also sympathetic to the dopers who get shat on and flamed out of the sport for getting caught doing what others do. I hate hypocrisy over the transgressions more than the transgressions themselves, in many cases. I do think there is a lot of s hitting on Russia, which they deserve, but there are soo many other federations which deserve this kind of treatment, as well.

Mark Mendoza wrote:

But that's just it - the US has been caught "hiding and covering up". At least for the 1984 Games, it is well-established that the US cheated on a fairly centralized level.

And you are right - to some degree, I'm not looking at at as a case of laws and rules - because the Olympics are bigger than that. Kicking Russia out of the Olympics would be a big deal on an international relations level, especially in the face of what would appear, to many, to be large-scale hypocrisy. It could have repercussions in areas completely unrelated to track and field, or other sports. It's fine to argue that one must always follow the letter of the law, but on the other hand, if you end up taking actions that cause (directly or indirectly) human lives to be lost because you want your track stars to beat their rivals, it might seem like you're missing the larger picture.

And I can't help thinking that it doesn't just SEEM like a huge dose of hypocrisy - it IS hypocrisy. Given that we are almost certain that doping is rife everywhere, it is basically saying, look, OUR way of doping (free enterprise, market-based doping) is right. YOUR way of doping (organized, socialist-style doping) is wrong. Therefore, you don't get to play in the Olympics, whilst we reap all the benefits.

Mark Mendoza wrote:

To paraphrase a couple of posts I read over on the Cycling News doping forum:

OK, so Russia dopes a lot. But they don't dominate everything, including events where historically you might expect them to do well. For example, they don't seem to have many male distance runners of note.

What does it say when a bunch of state-sponsored dopers can't keep up with the rest of the world? Are the Russians particularly bad at identifying talent? Are their athletes not as motivated as those from other countries? Or could it be that the rest of the world is just as filthy?

Look at the 2012 Olympics. Russia always puts some serious efforts into the Olympics. They finished 3rd with 82 medals (the USA led with 104). But we know that the Russian total was inflated - at least a couple of medals (women's 800m) will presumably be taken away, along with who knows how many more. Yet the home country, Great Britain, managed 65 medals, including some noteworthy golds, despite their fall as an athletics power over the last decade or two.

Are we to believe that even with the benefit of a centralized doping program, Russia could barely stay ahead of the clean Brits?