Keep the weights up. Greater leg strength might help you achieve even more than you had when you are younger and is probably why you can pop out a decent 200 with no running training.
Deadlifts and power cleans matter more than squats. Runners use their posterior chains
Front or goblet squats are the best squats for a runner - tire your back less.
SMALL doses, avoid fatigue, just do the minimum that maintains or improves your strength.
Good luck
Newly Improved: Good for you for going for it. I took 11 yrs, more or less off after college, gained 50+ lbs, and started running 5 yrs ago. Took me almost 1 year to reach my college racing weight. I am curious: how tall are you? I am just wondering, based on your current weight, and what you said you reached at the low-end (122 lbs) in college. It is a big swing from 122 to 186. Yours is an interesting case as you have gotten into power lifting, and presumably added a lot of muscle mass from that. This may be a hindrance to reaching your former performance level; 5k runners (at least the fast ones) are not generally power lifters! Do you have any goals for your weight relative to your running goals? Are you keeping up the power lifting routine?
Newly Improved wrote:
The purpose of the 200's is contradicting to what most people think I'm trying to accomplish.
In college the major mistake I made was not touching up on my foot speed. I'm just keeping from repeating past mistakes. I ran 53-54 for 400 in high school, and MAYBE 61 in college. This is mainly due to long slow running, without anything else. In the offseason I would do 100 MPW at the same paces, 6:30-7/mile without a tempo or any sprinting because I was so tired I forewent the stuff that mattered.
Someone said the 200's will lead me to plateau like last time? How? I'm doing 2 hard 200s a week? I'm taking a 10 minute rest between them. That's not exactly earth shattering. If I go out and run 35-36 second 200's I wont break 60 in the 400 next year. If I don't break 60 I've already put a low ceiling on my ability. I'll get to the race pace stuff some time next spring once all the other cogs (tempos, sprint work, mileage, healthy racing weight) fit.
My major regret in my training is I let my speed slip over the years in college and didn't know how to fix it until I was too late. I ran a modest 4:24 in high school but ran 4:38 for the mile in college>While running low 15's. If I would have kept my speed I had in high school the 4:54 pace I ran for 5k would have felt much easier.
Replying to the poster that said move on: I respect your opinion, however that is exactly what I had already done with my life. I'm 27. The last race I ran was July of 2011. I ran a 16:05 off of a 3 month lay off and said screw this its not worth it. I have hardly ran a step since and have done a myriad of other hobbies. Country Club Tennis, MGA Golf League, I bass fish once a week, Heavy Power Lifting 4 days a week, and I have ran my own financial business for 3 years. I'd hardly say I'm stuck in the past. I just have realized I enjoy training more than anything I've done since I got out of it. The process is the goal for me.
I understand what you are doing with the 200m sprints, and support that. I wonder why you need 10 min rests between 30 sec sprints though? There are many opinions on how to develop your basic speed, but most of them revolve around sprints of 50-150m repeated several (4-20) times. Sometimes people do plyometric or bounding style drills, and sometimes they do sprint-float-sprint type reps.
In HS we used to do all of these, but most often it was 100m of BUILD over 50m to top speed and then try to hold it for 50m ... then float into a jog for 100m ... then repeat. WE did this for 2k to 3k at a time. So that made 10-15 sprints.
Why rest for 10 minutes? You aren't 60 yrs old. The far more common basic speed WO I have seen is 6-12 X 100-150m at goal 400 speed. So at this age if you think you could run 60 for 400m next spring, just build up to 8-10 x 100m at 15sec. If you are faster than that shoot for 14.
But 10 min rests make that part of that brief WO last 32 min. Seems excessive? At least just take a walking rest of 3 min or something.
OK, I read it more carefully and see that you are doing 4 x 200m at 32, 32, 28, 28 and are walking ~5 min in between. That is closer to what I was thinking. A few yrs ago I read a great article by that 50 year old American that broke 15:00 (he is also a coach I guess) about a basic speed workout that he does and has his runners do. I think it was on Runner's World.com?
Anyway, it seemed very smart and centered around building up to top speed over 50m and then doing different things to develop your speed.
I don't think you need such a fancy approach, because you are 27, but it might be worth a look. I could not find the article but his name is Pete Magill and there seem to be plenty of articles on Plyos and sprints on there.
One thing we did was just do fast strides on the grass playing field. We did not time them and they were usually 100-120m on the soccer field. We would sometimes do as few as 8 and in XC we did them slower and did 24.
In any case, I would heed what others have said and focus on running 20-30 minutes a day (alternating a hard-easy plan) and doing strides on grass for the first 3 months. Like this ...
M: 20 min easy + strides (6-10)
T: 30 min easy
W: 20 min easy
T: 30 min easy
F: 20 min easy + strides (6-10)
S: OFF or other sport
Su: 30 min easy
This would be 20-25 mpw.
You have good speed already if you can run a legit 27 and 28 in the same WO.
Start by increasing your Sun run by 5 min every two weeks and then increase your 30min runs by 5 min a month. Once you reach :45 and :40 start by increasing your 20 min days. If you push the pace, do it on hte longer days. Looking like this ...
M: 30 min easy + strides (8-10)
T: 40 min moderate
W: 30 min easy
T: 40 min mod
F: 30 min easy + strides (8-10)
S: OFF or other sport
Su: 45 min mod
This is just 30-35 a week.
working on your speed is good but max 200s at the very beginning of your comeback will get you injured. ease into the speed with strides and 20-10s at the end of runs, plus 1 minute on, 1 minute off to work on your change of pace. 10x300, etc.
Newly Improved wrote:
I am continuing to lift 2 days a week. Mainly for body composition maintenance (or damage control). If I'm going to attempt to lose weight I'd rather not be a skinny fat. I do plan on switching out my squat for plyo metric style work such as box jumps and power clean. I need to get rid of the tree trunk legs I'm carrying around.
Weight loss will be the biggest challenge. Mainly because I refuse to crash diet to get where I'm headed. Weight is roughly 184 right now. I'm just going to monitor it and make sure the trend is down.
Sounds like a reasonable approach to both strength training and weight loss -- my two cents would be to hold off on introducing plyometrics until your specific preparation phase closer to the intended racing season.
Newly Improved wrote:
Weight loss will be the biggest challenge. Mainly because I refuse to crash diet to get where I'm headed. Weight is roughly 184 right now. I'm just going to monitor it and make sure the trend is down.
Exactly right IMHO. I suspect that a surprising amount of your current muscle will "pay its way" and that you'll get to satisfying times without having to become a skinny-minnie.
When I first started losing weight (from 225+ to 150+, eventually), one thing I promised myself is that I'd never skip a meal unless circumstances (travel or whatever) forced me to. Fourteen years later, I think I can count the meals I've missed on my fingers (or maybe thumbs). I didn't have a timetable or particular goal for the weight loss--just tried to build good habits and keep them, then see where that would take me.
Anyway, good luck and thanks to *all* positive contributors to this thread!
Dude. How'd the weekend go? Keep cracking at it brother.
Hey man,
Great to hear this and I'll be watching (and cheering) your improvement over the coming weeks / months.
Firstly, at only 27, age is not against you and many 5K + runners are only coming into their prime at this age. Therefore, it is possible to not only get back to your PR shape but actually go better.
I'm also doing something similar at 31 after 13 years away from serious running - used to be able to run a 4:22 mile in HS and 1:53 800m.
I'm more targetting a sub 3:00 marathon as my main goal but I'm figuring why not have some fun along the way with other distances e.g. 5K, 10K and HM.
I'm currently at 40MPW and working on a 5-day schedule which aims to have 2 quality sessions per week from a selection of the following: 1/2 mile repeats; 1 mile repeats; 5K tempo run, hill reps but mostly my main focus is to get some solid consistent mileage in with hopefully a gradual increase up to 60MPW by about Spring next year.
I don't think your 200m repeats are that crazy as you're not doing enough of them to really impact you but they will give you a nice indicator as to your speed. However, I think some strides at the end of your easy runs would be a nice feature to get in - 4-6 x 20s burst with focus on good stride and high knees.
Once you have been going for about 2 months, then you should start to bring back some more quality speed-endurance work e.g. mile repeats and get a gauge of how these are looking. It's one thing to run a 27s 200m but unless your conditioning is improving, it's meaningless for endurance running as well you know.
Keep us posted!
Newly Improved wrote:
Thank you for all the encouraging messages. This could be a complete fail, and if so I'll own it. I really don't have a lot to prove, or anything to lose for that matter.
Concerning some of the replies:
CDavis: Congratulations on your success. I'm looking forward to being in your shoes. I'm starting to get a small taste because 9 minute pace was all out. Fast forward 2 weeks and it's easy running. Baby step.
Heat: I think that has quite a bit to do with it. I just enjoy feeling some turnover for the first time in a quite a while.
Do Do the Same: Though I'm sure this is a troll, That's the idea. I don't want to be 40 and my youth be gone and wonder why I never tried doing it the RIGHT way.
Easy There: I am continuing to lift 2 days a week. Mainly for body composition maintenance (or damage control). If I'm going to attempt to lose weight I'd rather not be a skinny fat. I do plan on switching out my squat for plyo metric style work such as box jumps and power clean. I need to get rid of the tree trunk legs I'm carrying around.
Weight loss will be the biggest challenge. Mainly because I refuse to crash diet to get where I'm headed. Weight is roughly 184 right now. I'm just going to monitor it and make sure the trend is down.
Use a gps watch or your phone, make a strava account, and give us the strava link so we can all follow you and it'll avoid you having to use the forum as a running log. You can just use this thread to document notable things like feeling sore doing certain things, or just to discuss training ideas.
I am in a similar situation with you. I have been on and off with running for the last 5 years after getting Lyme Disease in 2010. I put on close to 60 lbs (lifting weights, eating crappy, partying, drinking, etc.). I ran in college for a top 5 NCAA D1 XC team and life was so simple, your only concern was getting your training in, going to class, and occasionally trying to get laid. Now, 5 years later with a real job, running feels near impossible after an 8 hour work day.
I decided to try and give running one more last honest attempt. I have been running 4-5 days a week for the past 2 weeks and running has been absolute torture. I feel heavy, slow, and embarrassed but each day feels a little bit better than the previous day and that's what gets me out of the door. Some few tips that I have for you after doing this for a short time: 1) DON'T COMPARE YOUR PACE/DISTANCE TO WHAT YOU USED TO RUN IN YOUR PRIME. You will get discouraged and it might lead you to overexert yourself on your runs. 2) Stretch- During this part of training, consistency is key. Your body is different and heavier (for now) compared to your peak fitness level. Tendons/muscles have more pressure on them with the added body weight. 3) Have little victories. Try and run without stopping, run 2 days in a row, run 3 days in a row, go 1/2 mile further on your run than the day before. These little victories will raise your confidence and will provide you an incentive with your training. Please don't think any goal is too little and always refer to rule #1. 4) Create a Strava account to document your training. You will be surprised to see how support from other runners helps you out during the days you don't want to get out the door to go run. There are a lot of people in the same boat as you (like myself) that get encouraged when we see people constantly improving.
Hope this helps you out.
wingading wrote:
I wouldn't quit just because you can't run a zillion miles an hour. When I started getting back in shape, my times at first were almost strangely slow. After taking a couple of weeks off, my progress literally took a LEAP. I'm now more comfortable running faster. I feel fit and more energized. That alone I think makes it worth the effort.
Its not about that. Running is hard on your body. If you want to stay fit and social, find somethign that doesn't pound the heck out of your feet and knees.
Clearly this guy isn;t trying to learn how to jog, but to return to his 'halcyon" days. A wasted effort.
Forge new boundaries. Go to to the tri.
My younger brothers best friends dad got killed on a bicycle last week. Hit and Run. 4th person I know close that's been killed on one. No thanks.
You can have your Tri. Life is too short. I sold my Orbea Orca in 2010 and will never ride again.
Day 2 week 2 is in the books.
Monday: 3 easy. I ran with a friend and his co-worker. The co-worker in worse shape then then the 2 of us so we let him dictate pace. First mile in 8:12, he was working pretty hard so we convinced him to slow down. Next 2 were around 9 minute pace. I stopped at the bathroom at the turn around and gave them a minute gap and ran them down in about 600 meters. It felt good to be able to put a 6 flat pace in there and keeping my heart rate steady. I had a young man try to keep me from over-coming him and it was really tempting to keep going at that pace. I harnessed it. This has been my most encouraging run. The 3 miles were a joke! Starting to be able to handle an easy run.
Tuesday: 5 miles. 1 warm up, 3 around 7:30 pace, 1 cool down. I'm just slowly ratcheting the pace down once per week.
Miles
Week 1: 15- 5 days
Week 2: 20- 5 days
Week 3 Goal: 22-26
Newly Improved wrote:
Day 2 week 2 is in the books.
Monday: 3 easy. I ran with a friend and his co-worker. The co-worker in worse shape then then the 2 of us so we let him dictate pace. First mile in 8:12, he was working pretty hard so we convinced him to slow down. Next 2 were around 9 minute pace. I stopped at the bathroom at the turn around and gave them a minute gap and ran them down in about 600 meters. It felt good to be able to put a 6 flat pace in there and keeping my heart rate steady. I had a young man try to keep me from over-coming him and it was really tempting to keep going at that pace. I harnessed it. This has been my most encouraging run. The 3 miles were a joke! Starting to be able to handle an easy run.
Tuesday: 5 miles. 1 warm up, 3 around 7:30 pace, 1 cool down. I'm just slowly ratcheting the pace down once per week.
Miles
Week 1: 15- 5 days
Week 2: 20- 5 days
Week 3 Goal: 22-26
Be prepared to back off a bit in week 3 or week 4. The change in training will usually catch up with you around then. If it happens, it is not a bad thing, as long as you pay attention.
I can slowly notice the change in training making things a little harder. Monday was easy, Tuesday was harder, Wednesday 9 flat pace was challenging.
Yesterday I did 4x200 again and had my worst session yet.
Half Mile Warm up, 31.5, 29, 28.6,28.8. The 31 was much more relaxed then it had been, but my legs were tired and didn't have that final gear. I was going to go on a longer 3 mile cool down but had some chafing in my thighs so I called it off.
Today I did 5 miles easy at 9 flat pace. Tomorrow I'm going to run 6 miles on grass progressively and that will put me at 24.5 miles on the week.
I was pretty stiff today. Next week I'm going to get 3 miles per day in 6 days out of the week to let my body recover and see if that makes any difference. I'm also going to cut my 200's down to 100's for the down week.
I've weight about every other morning the past 3 weeks and have recorded it:
188-186.6-187-186-186.4-184-186-185.4-183.6-184.4-184. There's definitely a downward trend there, but I've got a long ways to go. Hope everyone has a good weekend.
This is my own personal opinion and one that you can and probably will ignore but I don't know why the running media focus so much on long distances like 5K, half marathon etc. If you did weights and are all muscle, I wouldn't bother with the weight loss and just focus on training for the 800m. That way, you're still aiming for speed but wouldn't need so much weight loss or heavy mileage to do it.
eurodonkey wrote:
I have lots of experience getting out of shape, then back into it, and I'd like to recommend a very simple template that's hard to get wrong and evolves from where you are now.
1. repeat a given mileage for two weeks before increasing it. Runs should be easy. If you can't repeat easily, it was too much. Have a 'down' week in between, or when life is busy.
2. Do two "quality" sessions per week, 3-4 days apart.
(a) consists of either 200s on the flat, or 30-40sec reps up a moderate hill with a smooth gradient, or alternating if you can. Start with 4 reps, then 6, then 8, 10, 12, 15, 20 (breaking into sets if needed). Think about good form and nothing else. No all out sprinting. Either 200 jog rest on 200s, or walk down hill until ready to jog on hills. The recoveries speed up as you get fitter. This way, you will gradually progress from a few strides with long rest, up to a fairly substantial interval session relevant to 3000m.
(b) is some kind of tempo or progression run. Tempo effort, NOT hard, gradually lengthen tempos from 2mi up to 4mi or so (5 when really fit).
That will cover most things and has built-in "control mechanisms".
Great thread, and a great post here. I think it's so important to not overcomplicate things and that's hard when you have lots of information available. To the OP - hope you can continue to post your progress.
Saturday I cut it short before I got to 6. I probably got 4.25-4.5.
Total Weekly Mileage Week 3: 23.5
Notes: Friday I think I ran harder than I thought. I ran for time on a grass cross country course to take it easy on my body. Overall 45 minutes, but I'm pretty sure I got closer to 5.5 so that will work for my long run. Saturday I went out with all intentions of getting 6 but I felt a little off. It's hard to explain. I hit all the mile splits I have measured around 8:10-8:20 pace but felt kind of awkward. I stopped twice to measure heart rate and got around 150-155. A little drinking Friday night probably didn't help. A cooler head prevailed and I cut it short. I also ate better this weekend in an attempt to re-charge. We played 2 on 2 pickup basketball Sunday at a local park and I feel like I got into a cage match this morning. I'm going to attempt a run today, but I'm wary over-compensation for some pretty deep bruises could cause other issues.
Weekly Goal: 20 Miles. I plan on hitting 3 per day and a long run of 6-7 on Saturday. Maybe 1 day where I just get a small warm-up and small cool down with some sprints mixed in.
You know it's weird now that I look back through the past 3 weeks. I still feel slow and out of shape, but If I look back on the first week 9 minute mile pace was an absolute grind. Last Friday and Saturday I ran closer to 8 flat and had trouble making myself run any slower. That's pretty encouraging 3 weeks in.