Documenting my comeback to competitive running. From 20 to 15 minutes in a 5k.

Newly Improved wrote:

I'm putting this thread on here to provide a template to runners who have tried to make a comeback in the past or will try to make a comeback in the future. When I decided that it was time to get serious again, I frantically searched LetsRun for a timeline of the process I was about to pursue. I couldn't find anything other than, standard replies "it took me 6 months, good luck!" or, "I'm still trying, and I'm 2 years in!". There are simply too many variables to measure to answer the question so vaguely.

My Profile:

Age: 27

Weight: 186

Time off: 51 months, or 4.25 years

Current Conditioning: Weightlifting for 1 year.

Squat Max:425/Bench:265/Deadlift465

HS PR's

800: 2:01

1600: 4:24

3200: 9:38

5000:15:37

College PR's

3000: 8:50

5000: 15:24

10000: 32:40

So are you starting to do base again?

What can you currently run for any distance? I'd do a 400m, mile, and 5k time trial in the next 2 weeks to set a baseline. Just be careful to not pull anything in the 400. I'd stay away from wearing spikes for the time being.

I've followed Letsrun closely since 2006. Even in my years off, I still have checked the website lately.

My college career was a bitter disappointment. Frankly, it was my own fault. When I hung up my spikes I told myself I wouldn't touch a pair of running shoes again until I was so hungry I couldn't stand it. Well, here I am.

Mistakes I made that I learned from:

-Obsessing with 100 mile weeks- It lead to me getting the cart before the horse. I wouldn't listen to my body and take the time off. Also, with the intensity of the program, most of my runs should have been at a slower pace if I was going to attempt 100 MPW

-Weight Maintenance- I dropped from a healthy 150 to around 125 pounds. I simply thought lighter meant faster, and the whole time I ignored basic nutritional needs. This happens to relate to the home page topic last week on college running and eating disorders.

-Respecting Injuries- I tore my plantar fascia as a sophomore. Yes, TORE. I dropped my miles to 80 and ramped up my intensity quite a bit. Plantar Fasciitis kicked in, and I was heck bent on training through it to conference. I ran 15:33 in a race where I hobbled the last 3/4 mile. I remember it rupturing, the exact step, like it was 15 minutes ago.

-Consistency- The injuries led to me not being consistent. At first it was 6 months in a boot with a blown plantar. Afterwards it became me trying to race myself back in shape for various seasons, leading to being back in a boot. When a bolt comes off, the whole wheel tends to go.

-Pure speed- In my obsession with mileage I ignored my basic speed. In high school I ran a 53/54 split in the 400. In college I would be lucky to run 61. I plan on focusing on this by doing 200 meter repeats.

Training starting 10/26/2015

M: 2.5 Miles in 22 minutes

T: 3 miles in 30 minutes

TH: 2.75 @ 9 minute pace

F:3.5 with 3x200 meters 5 minutes between. 29-30-27.8

Sat: 3 miles in 26:20

Week of 11/2/2015

M:3.5 Miles @ 8:40 pace

T: 4 miles, first 3 at 8:20 pace, last mile in 6:30

My training weeks will format like this

15 MPW in 5 days

20 MPW in 5 days

25 MPW in 6 days

30 MPW in 6 days

I haven't thought past this. Once I get to this point I will start looking at incorporating a long run and a tempo into the system. My weight has dropped from about 194 to 186 in the past month. I imagine half of that has to do with glycogen storage.

I think it's worth noting, I have an above average knowledge in training. My 4 year college roommate is a Division 1 Cross Country coach. I myself have coached a 9:22/4:18 high school senior from 9:50/4:36 in about 6 months. Unfortunately, like most cases, I learned best from my own mistakes. Now I'm going to see if I can do things a little different and at 27, I'm running out of time.

I am there right now. Raced Division 3 college from 2002-2007

PRs:

4:28 Mile

9:01 3k

9:22 Steeple

15:34 5k

Race weight was 168-ish. I am now 185-ish. Running again hoping to lose some weight and get back under 17 for 5k.

Ran a half marathon last spring - trained 3-5 days a week. Ran 1:28:30 - It was rough in the beginning - Started in January. Ran 3-4 times a week and only 3-6 miles per day. Got down to running 7:15's for a while. Did some tempo work and a few fast intervals just to keep the speed. But the mileage was never over 35mpw.

Then took the summer and most of the fall off. Wife had our first child in March. Not a lot of time to run.

Couple of things for you:

How did you run 100 mile weeks and only run 15:24? Yikes. I was only running 45-50mpw and ran a few seconds slower. That mileage will burn a lot of people out. Your injuries also do not sound fun. The older you get the more prone you will be to injuries - recovery time sucks.

Are you coaching now? Much like you would for athletes it helps to write out plans so you can stick to them.

Start slow, fitness will return at some point, but it will not be in the next month. Keep grinding. I bookmarked your thread and will be looking forward to future posts.

If that's the schedule for your first couple weeks back, it's too much. Start with 3-4 days a week with like 15-20 minutes a day and just slowly work up from there. You have over 4 years of tendons and muscles getting nice and weak. Gotta build that back up or you'll have that cart before the horse again.

The 100 MPW was counter productive. I was incredibly over-trained and just kept digging that hole in hopes that I would come out the other side. I ran between 15:25 and 15:35 more times than I can count in my 1st-3rd years. I won't go near that mileage for a long time, if ever.

I don't coach. I coached a family friend from January-May of 2011. It was one of the best decisions I ever made. We both had a blast and he got to go to school for nearly free. I've worked in finance since I've graduating college and hope to one day volunteer coach at a high school.

The torn Plantar was horrible. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. I rushed to 70 MPW every time after (like within a month) and wouldn't allow myself to take it slow to get back.

I figured going forward I can use the 10% increase rule and be relatively competitive by next cross country season. I may be wrong and it may be too much too soon, but that's why I'm keeping a log of this. I really feel like past about 70 miles per week, for myself, marginal cost outweighs marginal benefit.

Example:

Month 1: 15-20-25-30

2: 25-30-33-36

3: 30-35-40-43

4: 33-40-44-48

5: 40-44-48-52

6: 40-50-55-60

Concerning 100 MPW in more detail:

100 MPW is an arbitrary number. As Don Kardong famously said, "Runners like to train 100 miles per week because it's a round number. But I think 88 is a lot rounder."

I was in a program that put emphasis on quality. I don't think I ever ran over 7 flat pace when I was trying to put in 100 MPW. This program had a couple guys every year try 100MPW. It usually panned out for 1 season before they got hurt and never made it back. The BroJo's & JK are walking & speaking testaments that slow running in high mileage is a necessity.

In summary, it works if done right. I used to train with the West Plains high school team quite a bit (if you don't know their story, google it). There's been controversy in the past that they have the whole program run 100 MPW. The results speak for themselves. They've had many All-Americans come out of that rural high school (enrollment at 150 per grade) program and a countless number of good ole boys go to college for free due solely to that program.

Thursday- 4 mile progression in 31:40. First 2 in 16:20. Second 2 in 15:20.

Friday- 1 mile warm up.

4x200 2 steady, 2 hard. Full recovery in between sets. 5-10 minutes walking.

(31.2,32,27.2,28.8)

The 27.2 was a pleasant surprise. I had a friend run in lane 4 for 100 meters to chase on that rep. Almost threw up after the 28.8.

Tomorrow I'm going to get 5 easy and that will put me at 20 for the week.

Week 2 has been a success!

Newly Improved wrote:

I'm putting this thread on here to provide a template to runners who have tried to make a comeback in the past or will try to make a comeback in the future. When I decided that it was time to get serious again, I frantically searched LetsRun for a timeline of the process I was about to pursue. I couldn't find anything other than, standard replies "it took me 6 months, good luck!" or, "I'm still trying, and I'm 2 years in!". There are simply too many variables to measure to answer the question so vaguely.

My Profile:

Age: 27

Weight: 186

Time off: 51 months, or 4.25 years

Current Conditioning: Weightlifting for 1 year.

Squat Max:425/Bench:265/Deadlift465

HS PR's

800: 2:01

1600: 4:24

3200: 9:38

5000:15:37

College PR's

3000: 8:50

5000: 15:24

10000: 32:40

What would REALLY be interesting is to see a before-and-after comparison of hormonal levels. Powerlifting testosterone vs. distance running testosterone.

I have a general sense you're pushing a little too much too fast. I don't know exactly how your training was like before you started running 200's but I know the track club I ran with used to start with jogging, then easy hills twice a week then 2 x 600m + 2 x 400m with 4 min. rest. It would start easier then we'd start pushing on the intensity with 200's. If you do it step by step it might be a lot easier on your body. I think it might be easier to aim for a first season in the 35 to 40 mile range. I read somewhere (maybe Rubio I'm not sure) that increasing mileage and intensity at the same time isn't ideal. Of course, I'm trying to get back into shape myself where I pretty much used myself as a guinea pig. Since I didn't know what I could do, I ended up increasing mileage and intensity as well (although in a much more gradual, modest way than your plan).

Newly Improved wrote:

The BroJo's & JK are walking & speaking testaments that slow running in high mileage is a necessity.

=============================================

Almost threw up after the 28.8.

Wejo also said you shouldn't race your workouts.

Go easy on the 200s. Way easy.

Like the others have stated. I would go easy as well. I just started running as well. Started out at 21:xx for 5K and Just ran a 18:44 en route to a 4mile road race this morning. Some people on here give good advise some just like to laugh at you. The ones that do give good advise i try to use it. I'm also following your progress. I have my own thread going on as well.

I'll admit I went a little too hard. I'm still feeling my perceived effort out. I would think 4x200's with 8 minutes recovery between would be an easy effort, especially if only 2 of them are hard. That workout is using your creatine phosphate systems. 30 seconds of sprinting is hardly anaerobic, and sure isn't AT, therefore I don't necessarily think this applies. Now if I added 10 seconds of work to each rep, then I'm going somewhere I don't want to be.

I did forget to mention I did just get done directing a Couch to 5k program to benefit a non-profit that I'm on the advisory board. Week 1 was total volume of 10 minutes running split up into 5x2 minutes. Week 8 finalized with 25 minutes of total running. I don't necessarily consider 12-14 minute pace 3 days a week mileage. That will help me in adapting to impact though. Along with doing some pretty serious power lifting, which may not being the same stress but it's still an exponential amount of weight on your joints and muscles.

20 MPW isn't excessive. Any healthy male should be able to get out and run 15-20 MPW without prior notice. Most high school programs START new runners at around 3 miles per day.

Time will tell.

Thank you. Congrats on your progress. I'm aware I'm going to attract some trolls and people who are petty. Anonymous internet forums have a way of bringing those people out in the masses. I love the Letsrun forums, and anyone who takes 5-10 minutes of their time to attempt to fire shots at a stranger through a anonymous handle has their own issues.

You went too hard on all of those reps. With time you will build the number of reps and do 10+ 200s on the same session. You are adding an aerobic component to it. It will not be sustainable. If you are in 20min shape as you say you are, I think you will have a hard time doing 10x200 at ~35s. Perhaps even slower.

Your comment about creatine phosphate systems is not accurate.

I have lots of experience getting out of shape, then back into it, and I'd like to recommend a very simple template that's hard to get wrong and evolves from where you are now.

1. repeat a given mileage for two weeks before increasing it. Runs should be easy. If you can't repeat easily, it was too much. Have a 'down' week in between, or when life is busy.

2. Do two "quality" sessions per week, 3-4 days apart.

(a) consists of either 200s on the flat, or 30-40sec reps up a moderate hill with a smooth gradient, or alternating if you can. Start with 4 reps, then 6, then 8, 10, 12, 15, 20 (breaking into sets if needed). Think about good form and nothing else. No all out sprinting. Either 200 jog rest on 200s, or walk down hill until ready to jog on hills. The recoveries speed up as you get fitter. This way, you will gradually progress from a few strides with long rest, up to a fairly substantial interval session relevant to 3000m.

(b) is some kind of tempo or progression run. Tempo effort, NOT hard, gradually lengthen tempos from 2mi up to 4mi or so (5 when really fit).

That will cover most things and has built-in "control mechanisms".

Good luck. I've done similar and my best advice is just consistency. Get a couple years strung together and race a lot and the improvements, although slow at first, will be exponential. You'll be tired and hungry a lot the first 6 months!

Also, Get a gps watch and set up a strava account so you don't have to post on here and people can watch your progress.