Gruesome: Elite shatters femur after colliding with non-elite in Toronto

Um, yeah wrote:

real TO wrote:

I didn't blame him at all.

What I said was that 1:15-1:20 HM "joggers" clog the fastest line, which is likely why the pacer had the women running down the left of the street and out of traffic. He obviously messed up having them veer over to the right too suddenly for their bottles.

If you watch the stream, the bulk of the lead females were already running on the right.

Yes, because being on the right was the fastest line and went by the elite water table.

Many other elite women (and sub-elite men) moved to the right to run even pace without weaving through slowing traffic. This obviously became a problem when those women had to weave over to the fluid station.

It was their own fault. It's a good course and nobody controls where you run within it. But some people here are acting like it was an incredibly stupid move to be two lanes from the fluid station 100 meters out, when there is perfectly good reason for it if you have run the course or watched closely.

only times matter wrote:

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real TO wrote:

Sorry, but a man running 2:33 is doing so for recreation; a women doing so is doing so as a profession. Chepchirchir is, anyway. There is a universe of difference between the two. (And wasn't that pack way ahead of 2:33 pace?)

It is just a statement of fact that the 2:33 guy is an amateur. Maybe "jogger" isn't the nicest term to use but hopefully the 2:33 guys of the world aren't too butt-hurt. It is probably not the agent's first language which could factor into the word choice.

Sorry but both runners are very good but sub elite runners. Both are the best part of 1/2 hour behind the world record. This is just a statement of fact.

You are actually arguing that a 2:33 male and a 2:33 female are on the same level?

Who can even respond to such idiocy? 2:33 would have placed 9th among women in the race, and is a comfortable US OT qualifier. Among men, 2:33 would not have been in the top 30, and isn't worth talking about in terms of elite running. It is very good for a recreational performance (what the agent called "jogging," or "fun running.")

We might be very serious about the work to achieve a 2:33, but there is nothing more momentous about it than the planning, motivation and goal-setting of any other serious hobby. It's like racing your sportscar on the track on weekends, compared to being an F1 or NASCAR driver.

I would be curious to know how fast you are.

At the most basic level 2:33 from two people is still an equal performance.

real TO wrote:

Many other elite women (and sub-elite men) moved to the right to run even pace without weaving through slowing traffic. This obviously became a problem when those women had to weave over to the fluid station.

This thing of 'slowing traffic' keeps coming up.

I get the theoretical concept of hordes of ego-driven males blasting the first few kms and then slowing up later on, but is there any real evidence that this was a problem in this race at the 5km mark?

Were there really multiple individuals going 10+ seconds/km slower who were causing the lead women to 'weave'?

TTC_tracks wrote:

She tripped crossing over street car tracks. It was a freak accident end of story.

True. But how can we get a 5 page thread out of that?

And someone must be blamed.

Bet cha a big Tim Hortons bearclaw that they wont be running along those tracks again next year you kerfuffle.

And the only good things to come out of Canada were that singer girl shania twain, and the non skunky molsons.

Draytons Moustache v. TO wrote:

Bet cha a big Tim Hortons bearclaw that they wont be running along those tracks again next year you kerfuffle.

What would your suggestions be then for a major north-south street to get the course to the Lakeshore after starting north on University?

There aren't that many options without a major course overhaul, only to deal with the minuscule risk of a freak accident.

Um, yeah wrote:

real TO wrote:

Many other elite women (and sub-elite men) moved to the right to run even pace without weaving through slowing traffic. This obviously became a problem when those women had to weave over to the fluid station.

This thing of 'slowing traffic' keeps coming up.

I get the theoretical concept of hordes of ego-driven males blasting the first few kms and then slowing up later on, but is there any real evidence that this was a problem in this race at the 5km mark?

Were there really multiple individuals going 10+ seconds/km slower who were causing the lead women to 'weave'?

No. The "slowing traffic" is a figment of realTO's imagination. This can be clearly seen on the race video (linked at the start of the thread) on the Athletics Canada website. There were two packs coalesced around the women's leaders. One with about 15 people on the right side of the road, and a smaller group of about 10 running down the middle. A few meters before the water station, the group in the middle of the road suddenly clues in to the fact that they are about to miss their water, so a couple of the ladies veer sharply to the right side of the road. That's when the injured runner clips the foor of the male runner BEHIND her (who's minding his own business, running in a straight line, and has every right to be where he is) and goes down.

Moo Goo wrote:

What is the prognosis for something like this? She is not a young gal. I imagine it will take her out of competition for at least a year.

Shouldn't be a problem, just think of it as 2x 6 month doping bans; she's been there before, should be able to handle it just fine.

metric assassin wrote:

Moo Goo wrote:

What is the prognosis for something like this? She is not a young gal. I imagine it will take her out of competition for at least a year.

Shouldn't be a problem, just think of it as 2x 6 month doping bans; she's been there before, should be able to handle it just fine.

I hope that she never races again. F*ck convicted dopers!

Cheaters shouldn't be allowed to ever make another dime in this sport after a positive test. I'm extremely disappointed that the Toronto Marathon RD even invited this runner to take part in their race.

A Russian runner broke her foot in them a few years ago. I don't think they'll change the course. The Queen St. portion of the course (roughly 32-35km) also has those tracks. The solution that would make everything better would be to get rid of the damn streetcars altogether.

The fact he quit over some yelling proved the jogger allegation. Anyone racing truly seriously wouldn't stop over that.

How on earth did she manage to snap her femur by snagging her foot? She must either have ridiculously weak bones or a bone cyst/tumor where the fracture occurred.

I have maintained all along it was entirely the fault of the weaving runner and her pacer.

I have also provided an explanation why the pacer would have led them down the clear center/left lanes rather than the clogged right.

If you've ever run that pace on the same course you know what's up. It's like a blood clot when these half marathoners realize they're on 5:30 pace and pump the brakes. Not our 2:33 man, who was probably going to break 2:25, but all the 1:20 runners going through 5k in 17-18.

real TO wrote:

If you've ever run that pace on the same course you know what's up. It's like a blood clot when these half marathoners realize they're on 5:30 pace and pump the brakes.

From the race video, can you identify some examples of these half marathoners pumping the brakes in the manner you describe anywhere near this part of the race?

Or were these individuals only visible to you?

Um, yeah wrote:

real TO wrote:

If you've ever run that pace on the same course you know what's up. It's like a blood clot when these half marathoners realize they're on 5:30 pace and pump the brakes.

From the race video, can you identify some examples of these half marathoners pumping the brakes in the manner you describe anywhere near this part of the race?

Or were these individuals only visible to you?

real TO likely doesn't race in that zone. I ran sensibly at that pace and saw zero signs of anyone pumping the brakes up ahead.

You can look at the results and see splits that show sensible pacing or negative splits even.

Over 40 wrote:

I ran sensibly at that pace and saw zero signs of anyone pumping the brakes up ahead.

You can look at the results and see splits that show sensible pacing or negative splits even.

You sound defensive.

But, um, there was no 5k split taken and certainly no splits before that in the race. So how are you pretending to know how many people ran 11 or so for the first 2 miles then slowed down?

I am not talking about an overall negative split, which is irrelevant here. I am taking about running the first 1-3k in 5:20-5:40 pace then slowing to 6:00 pace. This is common in every large half marathon. If you run steady 5:40s in any half marathon with 10,000 people, get ready to pass dozens or even hundreds of runners between 1k and 10k.

I hope you don't think I'm saying all of the 1:20+ half marathoners sprint out and then start walking at 3k, which most obviously don't. But when you make that left onto Bathurst you are staring down a long road with guys in basketball shorts clustered around elite women on the right and empty space on the left. Running in the open space isn't such a "horrible" "stupid" "dumb" idea, unless you go darting back into the crowd for water like FC did.

The quickness to insult a runner for being two lanes of road from a water table, and the inability of some people here to put themselves in her shoes, is sad. Perhaps typical of the self-involved North American jogger, a well-known species!

real TO wrote:

I hope you don't think I'm saying all of the 1:20+ half marathoners sprint out and then start walking at 3k, which most obviously don't. But when you make that left onto Bathurst you are staring down a long road with guys in basketball shorts clustered around elite women on the right and empty space on the left.

So are you able to identify on the race video all these guys in basketball shorts clustered around the elite women on the right?

Amazingly enough, the cameras following the lead women (particularly around the 1:02:00 mark in

) seem to have completely missed all these runners pumping the brakes.

Are you sure you aren't just making up this issue of slowing half marathoners?

(And just prior to the fall, check out how much disruption of the rest of the lead women's pack was caused by the two runners suddenly cutting in to get to the water station - they are darn lucky they didn't trip up several of them!)

Um, yeah wrote:

Are you sure you aren't just making up this issue of slowing half marathoners?

(And just prior to the fall, check out how much disruption of the rest of the lead women's pack was caused by the two runners suddenly cutting in to get to the water station - they are darn lucky they didn't trip up several of them!)

For the Nth time, obviously the runners cutting in were in the wrong. Can you not read?

I am simply arguing that there are a number of good reasons a pacer might take his charges down the open part of the road (reasons including avoiding a string of 100 amateur male half marathoners). I am sorry that this obvious truth offends you so grievously.