How pathetic is it that the top US marathoner can't even crack 2:10? Should we just give up?

Since this thread hinges on the incredible E African depth in the marathon over the last 10-15 years (who have relegated the rest of the world to also-rans), Wanjiru is the only athlete you mention that is relevant. Against him you have Tergat, Kipjoge, Kipsang, Kimetto, The Mutais, plus a flood of 2:04-2:07 guys, PLUS ALL of the Ethios. The "home-grown" system is crushing the "outsourcing" model of marathon development. It isn't even a contest.As to how much PEDs might be part of the system, we don't know. But we do know that the training model I described previously IS a huge, probably pivotal element.

That would certainly be the sort of group training that the other poster mentioned, yes. But more to the point, there was a high level of performance in Japan which is going to raise the level of performance for anyone who becomes part of the system, similar to the way David Morris got to be a 2:09 marathoner by going to Japan. Speculating about what would have become of anyone had they done something different from what they actually did is pointless.

HRE wrote:

That would certainly be the sort of group training that the other poster mentioned, yes. But more to the point, there was a high level of performance in Japan which is going to raise the level of performance for anyone who becomes part of the system, similar to the way David Morris got to be a 2:09 marathoner by going to Japan. Speculating about what would have become of anyone had they done something different from what they actually did is pointless.

So 7-8 runners training together is an "exceedingly large group"? Most training groups in the US have more than a few runners, don't they?

It's not so much the size of the training groups as the performance standard. Typically Japan has 7-8 runners under 2:11 for the marathon. That affects the level of everyone hoping for an Olympic berth, a deal with a corporate team, etc. In Kenya the same is even more true except for the bit about corporate teams.

I'm sure both BR and BH could have run faster. BR ran 7 marathons in one year didn't he?

I run very well for an old man on very low mileage. I ran very well 10 years ago. I could run faster. I tried to be an all rounder, but marathon running requires serious dedication to the exclusion of the shorter distances that I love eve more. I obviously don't lack self belief, that's why I go on about it so much.

Potential is an unknowable thing, but something to aim for with unconditioned optimism tempered by the need to listen to your body and keep learning. Too many people here think that cynicism is the same as realism.

I think you and Epstein are mythologizing. East Africans distance runners have a much higher level of fitness over every distance than other nations. They run very fast over 800 meters don't they? 1.48 is typical.

[quote]sospiri wrote:

I could run faster. [quote]

If you believe that, then do it. Otherwise stop going on about your thoughts on belief.

So you're saying you were just as good as your typical Kenyan?

A few questions... wrote:

[quote]sospiri wrote:

I am not sure how old you are, but do you believe you can run a sub-3 marathon in your 70s? Ed Whitlock did. So that means it's doable, right?

Yes, but first you have to do the work. Ed ran 3 hours a day at 8 to 8:30 pace.

How many 70 year olds are willing to do that? There are guys out there whose bodies will take the pounding at 70, but they are unwilling to grind out the miles.

Why? Their self talk would be " why am I doing this? "

The limiting factor is the ability of the mind to focus and persevere in spite of all obstacles.

fred wrote:

A few questions... wrote:

[quote]sospiri wrote:

I am not sure how old you are, but do you believe you can run a sub-3 marathon in your 70s? Ed Whitlock did. So that means it's doable, right?

Yes, but first you have to do the work. Ed ran 3 hours a day at 8 to 8:30 pace.

How many 70 year olds are willing to do that? There are guys out there whose bodies will take the pounding at 70, but they are unwilling to grind out the miles.

Why? Their self talk would be " why am I doing this? "

The limiting factor is the ability of the mind to focus and persevere in spite of all obstacles.

How many 70 yr olds could run 3 hrs every day without breaking down, if they just believed in themselves? Do you believe you can do it?

A few more questions wrote:

fred wrote:

Yes, but first you have to do the work. Ed ran 3 hours a day at 8 to 8:30 pace.

How many 70 year olds are willing to do that? There are guys out there whose bodies will take the pounding at 70, but they are unwilling to grind out the miles.

Why? Their self talk would be " why am I doing this? "

The limiting factor is the ability of the mind to focus and persevere in spite of all obstacles.

How many 70 yr olds could run 3 hrs every day without breaking down, if they just believed in themselves? Do you believe you can do it?

Did I say " if they just believed in themselves "? Can you make the distinction.

Believing in yourself. What does that mean? Those are your words.

On this board if you mention running 140 miles a week, the whiners start whining. And the guys running big miles focus on the task at hand and persevere.

I know you were just trolling any ways with the Bieber talk.

makes two of us Malmo, a wonderful way to break into a saturday. I had forgotten "who is we?". truly classic

va coach wrote:

Malmo, thanks for the post and link. Made my day.

I don't expect anybody with a half a brain and a small amount of knowledge to know better.

humpty dumpty wrote:

Ummm, anybody with a half a brain and a small amount of knowledge of the running world knows that there is no off season drug testing in east Africa.

There are no functioning drug agencies.

But you told us the important question is why. While self-belief is important, and indeed the mythology works against Americans/Europeans/etc, and in favor of East Africans, it's more than psychology and mythology.

sospiri wrote:

I think you and Epstein are mythologizing. East Africans distance runners have a much higher level of fitness over every distance than other nations. They run very fast over 800 meters don't they? 1.48 is typical.

rekrunner wrote:

But you told us the important question is why. While self-belief is important, and indeed the mythology works against Americans/Europeans/etc, and in favor of East Africans, it's more than psychology and mythology.

sospiri wrote:

I think you and Epstein are mythologizing. East Africans distance runners have a much higher level of fitness over every distance than other nations. They run very fast over 800 meters don't they? 1.48 is typical.

Correct. It's physiology in the form of favorable genes. for running.

Like a Cheetah.

It's many things. Any attempt to explain any complex phenomenon with just one or two variables will always be incomplete. You're really dealing with a question that is a subset of the larger question of why some people or some groups of people do a particular thing better than other individuals or other groups of people do.

Indeed. They have huge running communities in Kenya and Ethiopia. That is a huge advantage.

Bump