How pathetic is it that the top US marathoner can't even crack 2:10? Should we just give up?

No, I'm saying Rodgers "could" have run as fast as Bob K. had he had the same conditions at Boston, but I didn't say that he would have won over Cosmas. Let's face it, 2011 had A LOT to do with the conditions, but Bill Rodgers with his level of leg speed could not run that fast in the same conditions back then or now in his prime. You seem to believe that he could based on the fact of others going faster, therefore he could train as fast as them and then race as fast...not true.

New runners come along and those runners push the envelope and runners who have that ability can hang with them and do the same. Bill Rodgers pushed the envelope, so why didn't Bob Hodge, who trained with him, run faster than 2:12:30 when Bill ran 2:09:27 in Boston, '79? Why didn't Hodges "belief" get him closer to Bill that day, or a pr of faster than 2:10:59? I know the answer, but do you?

I don't know who the people that you speak of are but most of those runners you spoke of (Rodgers, Seko, etc...) simply trained as hard as they could and the results were the results.

When Dinsamo broke it in 1988 by 22 seconds the record was 3 years old. The record took over 10 years to go down! Why? Why wasn't there a flood of runners in that decade with all of the marathoners and races to be had?

There were Kenyans and Ethiopians back then too. Why didn't Shahanga do it? Was his pace in the 1983 marathon suicidal, or was it that he wasn't physically prepared to maintain it. Marty Liquori called it "sadist", I have that on tape as well.

When there's a pack of runners and they go out at 1:02, why do they lose x amount of runners from the pack? Why don't they just have the "belief" and stay with them, since they know it's possible? It's beyond belief my friend, way beyond that. The mind is surely part of it. The training is more, much more.

The money has increased. The exposure has increased. It's obviously a way out from over there, if you have the talent and desire to work hard.

Sorry, I get the belief thing and have written a lot about it, but it's much more than that.

The athletes competing now are physically different. They are more talented and there is more of them.

Guys today are better right away. There isn't the long gradual improvement from mediocre times.

Yes there is. Most of the U.S. runners are NOT better right away. As was mentioned, there are exceptions, but for the most part that is not true. Brian Sell, Dathan Ritzenhein, Meb, Abdi, etc...the list goes on. Which guys besides Hall are better right away. Me confused.

just better wrote:

The athletes competing now are physically different. They are more talented and there is more of them.

Guys today are better right away. There isn't the long gradual improvement from mediocre times.

I don't think we're really that far apart in our opinions here. We both agree that Rodgers, Shorter, etc. could have run somewhat faster with pacers, faster competitors and so on but neither of us think they could have run 2:03. How much faster they could have gone is beyond me. Force me to pick a time and I'd say that I don't think Ryan Hall could do anything that Shorter and Rodgers couldn't do a little better so if Hall can catch a tailwind at Boston and go 2:04:58 I'd give the old guys at least 2:04:57 assuming Hall was clean when he ran that time.

If you really know why Hodgie wasn't faster than Rodgers even though they trained together I'd love to know. I suppose I could ask him but I'm more interested in what your thinking is here. In general, it's not just mental. It's not just training or even talent. I know Shorter once said that he'd trained with many guys who could hammer him in workouts but couldn't touch him in races. I don't think we'll ever really know why some people are more successful at a particular activity than almost everyone else is.

Sally Vixxxxxxens wrote:

Shorter and Rodgers had relatively modest 10K PRs (28:04 and 27:45, respectively). If they had indeed been capable of 2:03 their 10K PRs would have been considerably faster, probably around 26:45. Shorter averaged about 4:30 per mile for a track 10K. And you are saying he could average about 4:42 per mile for not only a marathon, but one on the roads where the per mile average is slower? If the pair had been capable of 2:03 then they would have been unbeatable at the shorter distances (10K, 15K, 20K, etc.) against other runners with 2:10-plus PRs. Both lost their share of races at those distances. Do you think Luke P. has any chance against Kipchoge at a 25K road race? Well, that is comparable to all the guys back then beating 2:03-capable Shorter and Rodgers at those shorter distances.

Kimetto has a 10k PB of 28:30 and Kipsang's PB is 28:37. Those are on altitude and Kipsang has a road PB of 27:32. But they have not shown any evidence of their ability to run 26:45. Some people are better at shorter distances and others are better at longer distances. Geb, Tergat and Kipchoge are better at 5k/10k who had endurance to last long enough to run a fast marathon.

On the other hand, Rodgers never had a serious track career, and Shoter's PB is only 6 sec faster than his time in a championships race (Munich final), which was run 10 days before his marathon. If they had run a time trial with pacers in their prime, they could have run faster.

Puskedra is a different category, because he has never proved his ability to win against the best competition.

almost but no cigar wrote:

New runners come along and those runners push the envelope and runners who have that ability can hang with them and do the same. Bill Rodgers pushed the envelope, so why didn't Bob Hodge, who trained with him, run faster than 2:12:30 when Bill ran 2:09:27 in Boston, '79? Why didn't Hodges "belief" get him closer to Bill that day, or a pr of faster than 2:10:59? I know the answer, but do you?.

Bill Rogers and Bob Hodge HAVE trained together. That doesn't mean they trained together week after week. Bob Hodge got a lot out of his body. Bill Rogers got a lot out of his. The difference is that Rogers was more talented than Hodge.

You are mistaken about the money in the late 80s. After the 1984 Olympics all of the shoe companies pulled back on sponsorship. The big money flat races hadn't yet come to fruition. There's no mystery why Disamo's record lasted for so long.

The real mystery is why was Disamo's record so unapproachable even from himself.

1986 Tokyo Marathon Tokyo, Japan 2nd 2:08:29[2]

1986 Moscow Marathon Moscow, Russia 1st 2:14:42

1987 All-Africa Games Nairobi, Kenya 1st 2:14:47

1987 Rotterdam Marathon Rotterdam, Netherlands 1st 2:12:58

1988 Rotterdam Marathon Rotterdam, Netherlands 1st 2:06:50

1989 Rotterdam Marathon Rotterdam, Netherlands 1st 2:08:39

1990 Fukuoka Marathon Fukuoka, Japan 1st 2:11:35

1996 Rotterdam Marathon Rotterdam, Netherlands 1st 2:10:30

TaYloR MaDE wrote:

Yes there is. Most of the U.S. runners are NOT better right away. As was mentioned, there are exceptions, but for the most part that is not true. Brian Sell, Dathan Ritzenhein, Meb, Abdi, etc...the list goes on. Which guys besides Hall are better right away. Me confused.

just better wrote:

The athletes competing now are physically different. They are more talented and there is more of them.

Guys today are better right away. There isn't the long gradual improvement from mediocre times.

I was talking about the rest of the world.

On a similar note. I think the same logic works with Gerry Lindgren not breaking the four minute mile barrier because he wanted to let Jim Ryun shine in the light (the mile). Lindgren admired Ryun's focus and falls inline with your "belief" comparison below. Dontcha think? Cheers.

almost but no cigar wrote:

New runners come along and those runners push the envelope and runners who have that ability can hang with them and do the same. Bill Rodgers pushed the envelope, so why didn't Bob Hodge, who trained with him, run faster than 2:12:30 when Bill ran 2:09:27 in Boston, '79? Why didn't Hodges "belief" get him closer to Bill that day, or a pr of faster than 2:10:59? I know the answer, but do you?

lol what? wrote:

sospiri wrote:

The problem is inferior running (oxygen) economy compared to the East Africans.

Name one drug which improves running economy?

You can't, there is no such drug.

It's not about drugs.

You can't think of any drugs that improve the efficiency and abundance of oxygen transport in the body during exercise? none? and the Easy Africans just simply have that innate ability at an insurmountably superior level?

You obviously don't understand the concept of oxygen economy. Look it up, you will find it under the heading "running economy". You could also look up the word efficiency, but I think it will confuse you too much?

rekrunner wrote:

You should read "The Sports Gene" by David Epstein. There you will learn:

- Many reasons that favor the East Africans

- Not everyone avoids the issue

sospiri wrote:

I don't want to get involved in a discussion about the soci-economic reasons for an increase in East African elite level participation versus other nations, I think that subject is a bit of a red herring just like the drugs issue.

The real fact of the matter is that East African distance runners are more effcient runners and the real question is why?

And why does everyone avoid this issue? All the letsrun regulars avoid this issue and always have done. Why?

Running talent is as common as dirt. East Africans don't have a monopoly on these genetic traits.

sospiri wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

You should read "The Sports Gene" by David Epstein. There you will learn:

- Many reasons that favor the East Africans

- Not everyone avoids the issue

Running talent is as common as dirt. East Africans don't have a monopoly on these genetic traits.

So is it just a coincidence that the fastest marathoners ever are East African?

All-time men's best marathon

1 2:02:57 Dennis Kimetto KEN 22.04.84 1 Berlin 28.09.2014

2 2:03:02a Geoffrey Mutai KEN 07.10.81 1 Boston 18.04.2011

3 2:03:06a Moses Mosop KEN 17.07.85 2 Boston 18.04.2011

4 2:03:13 Emmanuel Mutai KEN 12.10.84 2 Berlin 28.09.2014

5 2:03:23 Wilson Kipsang Kiprotich KEN 15.03.82 1 Berlin 29.09.2013

6 2:03:38 Patrick Makau KEN 02.03.85 1 Berlin 25.09.2011

7 2:03:42 Wilson Kipsang Kiprotich KEN 15.03.82 1 Frankfurt 30.10.2011

8 2:03:45 Dennis Kimetto KEN 22.04.84 1 Chicago 13.10.2013

9 2:03:52 Emmanuel Mutai KEN 12.10.84 2 Chicago 13.10.2013

10 2:03:59 Haile Gebrselassie ETH 18.04.73 1 Berlin 28.09.2008

11 2:04:05 Eliud Kipchoge KEN 05.11.84 2 Berlin 29.09.2013

12 2:04:11 Eliud Kipchoge KEN 05.11.84 1 Chicago 12.10.2014

13 2:04:15 Geoffrey Mutai KEN 07.10.81 1 Berlin 30.09.2012

14 2:04:16 Dennis Kimetto KEN 22.04.84 2 Berlin 30.09.2012

15 2:04:23 Ayele Absehero ETH 28.12.90 1 Dubai 27.01.2012

16 2:04:26 Haile Gebrselassie ETH 18.04.73 1 Berlin 30.09.2007

17 2:04:27 Duncan Kipkemboi Kibet KEN 25.04.78 1 Rotterdam 05.04.2009

17 2:04:27 James Kipsang Kwambai KEN 28.02.83 2 Rotterdam 05.04.2009

19 2:04:28 Sammy Kirop Kitwara KEN 26.11.86 2 Chicago 12.10.2014

20 2:04:29 Wilson Kipsang Kiprotich KEN 15.03.82 1 London 13.04.2014

21 2:04:32 Tesgaye Mekonnen Asefa ETH 15.06.95 1 Dubai 24.01.2014

21 2:04:32 Dickson Chumba KEN 27.10.86 3 Chicago 12.10.2014

23 2:04:38 Tsegay Kebede ETH 15.01.87 1 Chicago 07.10.2012

24 2:04:40 Emmanuel Mutai KEN 12.10.84 1 London 17.04.2011

25 2:04:42 Eliud Kipchoge KEN 05.11.84 1 London 26.04.2015

26 2:04:44 Wilson Kipsang Kiprotich KEN 15.03.82 1 London 22.04.2012

27 2:04:45 Lelisa Desisa Benti ETH 14.01.90 1 Dubai 25.01.2013

28 2:04:47 Wilson Kipsang Kiprotich KEN 15.03.82 2 London 26.04.2015

29 2:04:48 Patrick Makau KEN 02.03.85 1 Rotterdam 11.04.2010

29 2:04:48 Yemane Adhane ETH 08.04.85 1 Rotterdam 15.04.2012

29 2:04:48 Berhanu Shiferaw ETH 31.05.93 2 Dubai 25.01.2013

32 2:04:49 Tadesse Tola ETH 31.10.87 3 Dubai 25.01.2013

33 2:04:50 Dino Sefer ETH 28.05.88 2 Dubai 27.01.2012

33 2:04:50 Getu Feleke ETH 28.11.86 2 Rotterdam 15.04.2012

35 2:04:52 Feyisa Lelisa ETH 01.02.90 2 Chicago 07.10.2012

35 2:04:52 Endeshaw Negesse ETH 18.03.88 4 Dubai 25.01.2013

37 2:04:53 Haile Gebrselassie ETH 18.04.73 1 Dubai 18.01.2008

37 2:04:53a Gebre-egziabher Gebremariam ETH 10.09.84 3 Boston 18.04.2011

37 2:04:53 Bernard Koech KEN 31.01.88 5 Dubai 25.01.2013

40 2:04:54 Markos Geneti ETH 30.05.84 3 Dubai 27.01.2012

41 2:04:55 Paul Tergat KEN 17.06.69 1 Berlin 28.09.2003

41 2:04:55 Geoffrey Mutai KEN 07.10.81 2 Rotterdam 11.04.2010

41 2:04:55 Stanley Biwott KEN 21.04.86 2 London 13.04.2014

44 2:04:56 Sammy Korir KEN 12.12.71 2 Berlin 28.09.2003

44 2:04:56 Jonathan Maiyo KEN 05.05.88 4 Dubai 27.01.2012

46 2:04:57 Wilson Kipsang Kiprotich KEN 15.03.82 1 Frankfurt 31.10.2010

47 2:04:58a Ryan Hall USA 14.10.82 4 Boston 18.04.2011

48 2:05:00 Eliud Kipchoge KEN 05.11.84 1 Rotterdam 13.04.2014

49 2:05:03 Moses Mosop KEN 17.07.85 3 Rotterdam 15.04.2012

50 2:05:04 Abel Kirui KEN 04.06.82 3 Rotterdam 05.04.2009

50 2:05:04 Kenenisa Bekele ETH 13.06.82 1 Paris 06.04.2014

52 2:05:06 Geoffrey Mutai KEN 07.10.81 1 New York City 06.11.2011

53 2:05:08 Patrick Makau KEN 02.03.85 1 Berlin 26.09.2010

54 2:05:10 Samuel Wanjiru KEN 10.11.86 1 London 26.04.2009

54 2:05:10 Geoffrey Mutai KEN 07.10.81 2 Berlin 26.09.2010

54 2:05:10 Tadesse Tola ETH 31.10.87 5 Dubai 27.01.2012

57 2:05:12 Stanley Biwott KEN 21.04.86 1 Paris 15.04.2012

58 2:05:13 Vincent Kipruto KEN 13.09.87 3 Rotterdam 11.04.2010

58 2:05:13 Markos Geneti ETH 30.05.84 2 Dubai 24.01.2014

60 2:05:15 Martin Lel KEN 29.10.78 1 London 13.04.2008

61 2:05:16 Levi Matebo KEN 03.11.89 2 Frankfurt 30.10.2011

61 2:05:16 Sammy Kirop Kitwara KEN 26.11.86 3 Chicago 13.10.2013

63 2:05:18 Tsegay Kebede ETH 15.01.87 1 Fukuoka 06.12.2009

64 2:05:19 Tsegay Kebede ETH 15.01.87 1 London 25.04.2010

65 2:05:20 Tsegay Kebede ETH 15.01.87 2 London 26.04.2009

66 2:05:23 Feyisa Lelisa ETH 01.02.90 4 Rotterdam 11.04.2010

67 2:05:24 Samuel Wanjiru KEN 10.11.86 2 London 13.04.2008

68 2:05:25 Bado Worku ETH 22.07.88 3 Berlin 26.09.2010

68 2:05:25 Albert Matebor KEN 20.12.80 3 Frankfurt 30.10.2011

70 2:05:27 Jaouad Gharib MAR 22.05.72 3 London 26.04.2009

70 2:05:27 Wilson Chebet KEN 07.12.85 1 Rotterdam 10.04.2011

70 2:05:27 Tilahun Regessa ETH 18.01.90 3 Chicago 07.10.2012

73 2:05:28 Hayle Lemi ETH 94 1 Dubai 23.01.2015

74 2:05:29 Haile Gebrselassie ETH 18.04.73 1 Dubai 16.01.2009

75 2:05:30 Abderrahim Goumri MAR 21.05.76 3 London 13.04.2008

75 2:05:30 Eliud Kipchoge KEN 05.11.84 1 Hamburg 21.04.2013

77 2:05:33 Vincent Kipruto KEN 13.09.87 2 Rotterdam 10.04.2011

78 2:05:36 James Kipsang Kwambai KEN 28.02.83 2 Berlin 28.09.2008

78 2:05:36 Wilson Chebet KEN 07.12.85 1 Amsterdam 20.10.2013

80 2:05:37 Moses Mosop KEN 17.07.85 1 Chicago 09.10.2011

80 2:05:37 Wilson Loyanai KEN 20.11.88 1 Seoul 18.03.2012

82 2:05:38 Khalid Khannouchi USA 22.12.71 1 London 14.04.2002

82 2:05:38 Tilahun Regessa ETH 18.01.90 1 Rotterdam 14.04.2013

84 2:05:39 Eliud Kiptanui KEN 06.06.89 1 Praha 09.05.2010

85 2:05:41 Samuel Wanjiru KEN 10.11.86 1 Chicago 11.10.2009

85 2:05:41 Yami Dadi ETH 82 6 Dubai 27.01.2012

85 2:05:41 Wilson Chebet KEN 07.12.85 1 Amsterdam 21.10.2012

85 2:05:41 Getu Feleke ETH 28.11.86 1 Wien 13.04.2014

89 2:05:42 Khalid Khannouchi MAR 22.12.71 1 Chicago 24.10.1999

89 2:05:42 Shami Abdullah ETH 16.07.84 7 Dubai 27.01.2012

89 2:05:42 Deressa Chisma ETH 21.11.76 8 Dubai 27.01.2012

89 2:05:42 Dickson Chumba KEN 27.10.86 1 Tokyo 23.02.2014

93 2:05:44 Getu Feleke ETH 28.11.86 1 Amsterdam 17.10.2010

94 2:05:45 Martin Lel KEN 29.10.78 2 London 17.04.2011

94 2:05:45 Patrick Makau KEN 02.03.85 3 London 17.04.2011

96 2:05:46 Dickson Chumba KEN 27.10.86 1 Eindhoven 14.10.2012

97 2:05:47 Vincent Kipruto KEN 13.09.87 1 Paris 05.04.2009

98 2:05:48 Paul Tergat KEN 17.06.69 2 London 14.04.2002

98 2:05:48 Jafred Chirchir KEN 08.08.83 1 Eindhoven 09.10.2011

100 2:05:49 William Kipsang KEN 26.06.77 1 Rotterdam 13.04.2008

100 2:05:49 Birhanu Girma ETH 22.11.86 3 Dubai 24.01.2014

100 2:05:49 Mark Korir KEN 10.01.85 1 Paris 12.04.2015

103 2:05:50 Evans Rutto KEN 14.01.84 1 Chicago 12.10.2003

103 2:05:50 James Kipsang Kwambai KEN 28.02.83 1 Seoul 04.11.2012

103 2:05:50 Dennis Kimetto KEN 22.04.84 3 London 26.04.2015

106 2:05:51 Kenenisa Bekele ETH 13.06.82 4 Chicago 12.10.2014

107 2:05:52a Robert Kiprono Cheruiyot KEN 10.08.88 1 Boston 19.04.2010

107 2:05:52 Lelisa Desisa Benti ETH 14.01.90 2 Dubai 23.01.2015

109 2:05:53 Wilson Chebet KEN 07.12.85 1 Amsterdam 16.10.2011

110 2:05:54 Sammy Kirop Kitwara KEN 26.11.86 4 Chicago 07.10.2012

111 2:05:56 Khalid Khannouchi USA 22.12.71 1 Chicago 13.10.2002

111 2:05:56 Haile Gebrselassie ETH 18.04.73 1 Berlin 24.09.2006

111 2:05:56 Abera Kuma ETH 31.08.90 3 Berlin 28.09.2014

114 2:05:57 Tadesse Tola ETH 31.10.87 2 Tokyo 23.02.2014

115 2:05:58 Shami Abdullah ETH 16.07.84 1 Hamburg 29.04.2012

116 2:06:00 Endeshaw Negesse ETH 18.03.88 1 Tokyo 22.02.2015

117 2:06:03 James Kipsang Kwambai KEN 28.02.83 2 Seoul 18.03.2012

118 2:06:04 Abderrahim Goumri MAR 21.05.76 2 Chicago 11.10.2009

118 2:06:04 Tsegay Kebede ETH 15.01.87 1 London 21.04.2013

120 2:06:05 Ronaldo da Costa BRA 07.06.70 1 Berlin 20.09.1998

120 2:06:05 Laban Korir KEN 30.12.85 2 Amsterdam 16.10.2011

122 2:06:06 Birhanu Girma ETH 22.11.86 2 Amsterdam 20.10.2013

122 2:06:06 Deriba Robi ETH 20.09.90 3 Dubai 23.01.2015

124 2:06:07 Eric Ndiema KEN 28.12.92 3 Amsterdam 16.10.2011

124 2:06:07 Philip Sanga Kimutai KEN 10.09.83 4 Frankfurt 30.10.2011

126 2:06:08 Haile Gebrselassie ETH 18.04.73 1 Berlin 20.09.2009

126 2:06:08 Vincent Kipruto KEN 13.09.87 3 Chicago 11.10.2009

126 2:06:08 Patrick Makau KEN 02.03.85 1 Frankfurt 28.10.2012

126 2:06:08 Bernard Koech KEN 31.01.88 2 Rotterdam 13.04.2014

130 2:06:09 Haile Gebrselassie ETH 18.04.73 1 Dubai 22.01.2010

131 2:06:10 Tsegay Kebede ETH 15.01.87 1 Fukuoka 07.12.2008

132 2:06:11 Franklin Chepkwony KEN 15.06.84 2 Eindhoven 14.10.2012

132 2:06:11 Wilson Loyanai KEN 20.11.88 1 Seoul 15.03.2015

134 2:06:12 Wilson Chebet KEN 07.12.85 2 Amsterdam 17.10.2010

134 2:06:12 Geoffrey Kamworor KEN 28.11.92 3 Berlin 30.09.2012

136 2:06:13 Wilson Kiprotich Kebenei KEN 20.07.80 1 Otsu 07.03.2011

136 2:06:13a Abreham Cherkos ETH 23.09.89 5 Boston 18.04.2011

136 2:06:13 Wesley Korir KEN 15.11.82 5 Chicago 07.10.2012

139 2:06:14 Felix Limo KEN 22.08.80 1 Rotterdam 04.04.2004

139 2:06:14 Patrick Makau KEN 02.03.85 4 Rotterdam 05.04.2009

139 2:06:14 Gilbert Kirwa KEN 20.12.85 1 Frankfurt 25.10.2009

142 2:06:15 Titus Munji KEN 20.12.79 3 Berlin 28.09.2003

142 2:06:15 Emmanuel Mutai KEN 12.10.84 4 London 13.04.2008

142 2:06:15 Bazu Worku Hayla ETH 15.09.90 2 Paris 05.04.2009

142 2:06:15 Wesley Korir KEN 15.11.82 2 Chicago 09.10.2011

142 2:06:15 Vincent Kipruto KEN 13.09.87 1 Frankfurt 27.10.2013

147 2:06:16 Moses Tanui KEN 20.08.65 2 Chicago 24.10.1999

147 2:06:16 Daniel Njenga KEN 07.05.76 2 Chicago 13.10.2002

147 2:06:16 Toshinari Takaoka JPN 24.09.70 3 Chicago 13.10.2002

147 2:06:16 Evans Rutto KEN 14.01.84 1 Chicago 10.10.2004

147 2:06:16 Mark Kiptoo KEN 21.06.76 2 Frankfurt 27.10.2013

152 2:06:17 Ryan Hall USA 14.10.82 5 London 13.04.2008

152 2:06:17 Seboka Tola ETH 10.11.87 9 Dubai 27.01.2012

152 2:06:17 Eric Ndiema KEN 28.12.92 3 Eindhoven 14.10.2012

152 2:06:17 Tamirat Tola ETH 11.08.91 4 Dubai 24.01.2014

152 2:06:17 Yacob Jarso ETH 05.02.88 1 Seoul 16.03.2014

157 2:06:18 Paul Tergat KEN 17.06.69 4 Chicago 13.10.2002

157 2:06:18 Evans Rutto KEN 14.01.84 1 London 18.04.2004

157 2:06:18 Gilbert Koech KEN 81 1 Amsterdam 18.10.2009

160 2:06:19 Moses Mosop KEN 17.07.85 1 Xiamen 03.01.2015

161 2:06:20 Haile Gebrselassie ETH 18.04.73 1 Amsterdam 16.10.2005

162 2:06:21 Gebretsadik Adhana ETH 16.07.92 2 Amsterdam 21.10.2012

162 2:06:21 Tilahun Regessa ETH 18.01.90 1 Eindhoven 12.10.2014

164 2:06:22 Assefa Bentayehu ETH 2 Amsterdam 21.10.2012

164 2:06:22 Bernard Kiprop Kipyego KEN 16.07.86 1 Amsterdam 19.10.2014

166 2:06:23 Robert Cheboror KEN 09.09.78 1 Amsterdam 17.10.2004

166 2:06:23 Robert Kiprono Cheruiyot KEN 10.08.88 2 Frankfurt 25.10.2009

166 2:06:23 Emmanuel Mutai KEN 12.10.84 2 London 25.04.2010

169 2:06:24 Samuel Wanjiru KEN 10.11.86 1 Chicago 10.10.2010

169 2:06:24 Raji Assefa ETH 18.02.86 2 Paris 15.04.2012

169 2:06:24 Stephen Chemlany KEN 09.08.82 2 Seoul 16.03.2014

172 2:06:25 Evans Kiprop Cheruiyot KEN 10.05.82 1 Chicago 12.10.2008

172 2:06:25 Deressa Chisma ETH 21.11.76 1 Praha 13.05.2012

172 2:06:25 James Kipsang Kwambai KEN 28.02.83 1 Seoul 03.11.2013

175 2:06:26 David Kiyeng KEN 83 3 Paris 05.04.2009

175 2:06:26 Feyisa Bekele ETH 04.08.83 4 Amsterdam 21.10.2012

175 2:06:26 Geoffrey Kamworor KEN 28.11.92 3 Berlin 29.09.2013

178 2:06:27 Sisay Jisa ETH 29.11.82 3 Paris 15.04.2012

179 2:06:28 Nathaniel Kipkosgei KEN 01.09.84 2 Eindhoven 09.10.2011

179 2:06:28 Emmanuel Mutai KEN 12.10.84 2 New York City 06.11.2011

181 2:06:29 Emmanuel Mutai KEN 12.10.84 1 Amsterdam 21.10.2007

181 2:06:29 Bernard Kiprop Kipyego KEN 16.07.86 3 Chicago 09.10.2011

181 2:06:29 Robert Kiprono Cheruiyot KEN 10.08.88 5 Frankfurt 30.10.2011

181 2:06:29 Yemane Adhane ETH 08.04.85 10 Dubai 27.01.2012

181 2:06:29 Bernard Koech KEN 31.01.88 3 Amsterdam 20.10.2013

186 2:06:30 Tsegay Kebede ETH 15.01.87 4 Paris 05.04.2009

186 2:06:30 Sammy Kirop Kitwara KEN 26.11.86 3 Tokyo 23.02.2014

186 2:06:30 Tsegay Kebede ETH 15.01.87 3 London 13.04.2014

189 2:06:31 Tadesse Tola ETH 31.10.87 2 Frankfurt 31.10.2010

189 2:06:31 Benjamin Kiptoo KEN 79 1 Paris 10.04.2011

189 2:06:31 Peter Kirui KEN 02.01.88 6 Frankfurt 30.10.2011

189 2:06:31 Ayele Absehero ETH 28.12.90 4 London 13.04.2014

193 2:06:32 Samuel Wanjiru KEN 10.11.86 1 Beijing 24.08.2008

194 2:06:33 Gert Thys RSA 12.11.71 1 Tokyo 14.02.1999

194 2:06:33 Michael Rotich KEN 29.10.82 1 Paris 06.04.2003

194 2:06:33 Chala Dechase ETH 13.06.84 2 Dubai 22.01.2010

194 2:06:33 Nicholas Kipkemboi KEN 05.07.86 6 Dubai 25.01.2013

194 2:06:33 Emmanuel Mutai KEN 12.10.84 2 London 21.04.2013

194 2:06:33 Stephen Kiprotich UGA 18.04.89 2 Tokyo 22.02.2015

200 2:06:34 Marilson dos Santos BRA 06.08.77 4 London 17.04.2011

200 2:06:34 Nicholas Manza KEN 02.03.85 4 Amsterdam 16.10.2011

200 2:06:34 Dickson Chumba KEN 27.10.86 3 Tokyo 22.02.2015

203 2:06:35 Haile Gebrselassie ETH 18.04.73 3 London 14.04.2002

203 2:06:35 Markos Geneti ETH 30.05.84 1 Los Angeles 20.03.2011

203 2:06:35 Stephen Tum KEN 12.06.86 1 Marrakech 27.01.2013

203 2:06:35 Feyisa Lilesa ETH 01.02.90 4 Dubai

Just finishing a marathon is good enough, right?

sospiri wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

You should read "The Sports Gene" by David Epstein. There you will learn:

- Many reasons that favor the East Africans

- Not everyone avoids the issue

Running talent is as common as dirt. East Africans don't have a monopoly on these genetic traits.

Correct. Pretty much everyone can actually run. The East Africans only have a monopoly on the extreme ability to run well.

sospiri wrote:

lol what? wrote:

You can't think of any drugs that improve the efficiency and abundance of oxygen transport in the body during exercise? none? and the Easy Africans just simply have that innate ability at an insurmountably superior level?

You obviously don't understand the concept of oxygen economy. Look it up, you will find it under the heading "running economy". You could also look up the word efficiency, but I think it will confuse you too much?

Try running efficiently and economically with a clothespin over your nose and a sock in your mouth. The need to still breathe a lot of oxygen in will become abundantly apparent.

I never said it was only belief but without it...

Why did I never run faster? I could make a laundry list of possible reasons but in the end I had a modicum of success and I ran what I ran.

Bill made all of us better and contributed to our "belief" just witnessing his successes.

Hodgie’s view on the science (or is it art?) of training

Regarding sound training methods and the science behind them, which have been discussed a lot lately: I can honestly say that after 40 years of involvement in long distance running as an athlete and a (sort of) coach, I cannot tell anyone “exactly” how he or she should train.

I only know what worked for me and my contemporaries; I can offer broad guidelines based on that experience, giving young runner a starting point to work out what will be best for him or her.

I have read books by David Costill, Jack Daniels, and Peter Pfitzinger/Scott Douglas. Very interesting. I highly recommend them, but contrast them with books by Arthur Lydiard and some of the great biographies – Peter Snell, Murray Halberg, Ron Hill, Ron Clarke, Clarence DeMar, and even Bill Rodgers and Frank Shorter. The latter provide inspiration and methodology. While reading them you want to head out for a run.

Everything we need to know about training was discovered many years ago through the ultimate science: trial and error. The exercise physiologists merely explain (perhaps correctly, perhaps not) why they think these methods work, and many write books suggesting they themselves invented the best methods.

When you begin to believe, that is when you will be on the right track to try and accomplish whatever you have set out to do. My advice is to start with Lydiard for some sound training methods, followed by the “Horatio Alger”-type biographies for inspiration.

Just the same, East Africans dominate, and Epstein treats the subject comprehensively. It's the hardware and the software.

sospiri wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

You should read "The Sports Gene" by David Epstein. There you will learn:

- Many reasons that favor the East Africans

- Not everyone avoids the issue

Running talent is as common as dirt. East Africans don't have a monopoly on these genetic traits.

Pontus wrote:

On a similar note. I think the same logic works with Gerry Lindgren not breaking the four minute mile barrier because he wanted to let Jim Ryun shine in the light (the mile). Lindgren admired Ryun's focus and falls in

line with your "belief" comparison below. Dontcha think?

Cheers.

almost but no cigar wrote:

New runners come along and those runners push the envelope and runners who have that ability can hang with them and do the same. Bill Rodgers pushed the envelope, so why didn't Bob Hodge, who trained with him, run faster than 2:12:30 when Bill ran 2:09:27 in Boston, '79? Why didn't Hodges "belief" get him closer to Bill that day, or a pr of faster than 2:10:59? I know the answer, but do you?

Gerry the Jogger did not run sub 4 out of respect for Jim Ryun?

Wanna buy a bridge in NYC? I got one for you hell I have 914 of them all at a great price.

Instead Lindgren carefully ran 4 consecutive 4:01 miles.

16:04 wrote:

Instead Lindgren carefully ran 4 consecutive 4:01 miles.