Chicago better or worse without pacers?

Nutella1 wrote:

agip wrote:

I think you have to convert at least some of the time bonus money into $ for place - otherwise you might lose some elites.

It's 2015, buddy. Elites are running Marathon for appearance fee, not for price money.

Btw, there are literally 100 Kenyan guys who have a faster PR than Dickson Chumba.

Clearly, Chicago has a strategy, the strategy is to focus on the "event character" of the Marathon rather than the competition.

I wonder if part of the motivation for that strategy came from being so burned by shubakhova - Chicago paid up in appearance fees, probably paid up in time bonuses...and then she dragged the marathon's reputation down with her cheating cheaty cheat races.

So instead they will shoot for A minus runners, try to get good competitive races out of them and with some luck not get popped again. Obviously 90% of marathoners don't give a carp if someone ran 2:05 or 2:08, but they will remember a head to head sprint. much better pictures and stories.

point being that if time is the meter of all things, drugs get more useful.

post nups wrote:

Save that for Boston wrote:

It was boring, the point of a race is to get fast times.

That is definitely NOT the point of a race.

Depends on your point of view I s'pose. Any time I've run a race it's to run as fast as I can. To try and improve.

To keep with the theme of the thread, I'll add that removing the elite pacers seems to both hurt and help the race. It helps financially in so far as no one is being paid to pace. It hurts WR attempts as the leaders do not have the luxury of going on "auto pilot" behind a rabbit.

The grumblings about it "hurting the livelihood of the athletes" just isn't true. Just like any other game, as long as everyone knows the rules before playing they are each responsible for the choices they make. Some may choose to run flat-out for time bonuses, some may choose to not lead until late in the race off of a slow pace and go for the victory that way, and some may choose to skip Chicago altogether.

For those saying that Chicago is worse because a tall kid named Luke was in the mix, I say hogwash. You say that a race with him in the mix isn't worth watching. I say you'd be falling over yourselves if Cologne, Rome, and/or others like them were televised and an American was in it as long as Luke was.

Nutella1 wrote:

It's 2015, buddy. Elites are running Marathon for appearance fee, not for price money.

Btw, there are literally 100 Kenyan guys who have a faster PR than Dickson Chumba.

Clearly, Chicago has a strategy, the strategy is to focus on the "event character" of the Marathon rather than the competition.

Unless there's 2 Dickson Chumbas, he's number 12 all time per the IAAF

2:04 is legit, man.

I think this is about right. There's a lot less interest in the elites than in the running of thousands. How many of the marathon participants could today name the top three finishers?

Nutella1 wrote:

agip wrote:

I think you have to convert at least some of the time bonus money into $ for place - otherwise you might lose some elites.

It's 2015, buddy. Elites are running Marathon for appearance fee, not for price money.

Btw, there are literally 100 Kenyan guys who have a faster PR than Dickson Chumba.

Clearly, Chicago has a strategy, the strategy is to focus on the "event character" of the Marathon rather than the competition.

Ho Hum wrote:

Nutella1 wrote:

It's 2015, buddy. Elites are running Marathon for appearance fee, not for price money.

Btw, there are literally 100 Kenyan guys who have a faster PR than Dickson Chumba.

Clearly, Chicago has a strategy, the strategy is to focus on the "event character" of the Marathon rather than the competition.

Unless there's 2 Dickson Chumbas, he's number 12 all time per the IAAF

http://www.iaaf.org/records/toplists/road-running/marathon/outdoor/men/senior

2:04 is legit, man.

I love it when the real facts are brought up. And Kitwara is number 11 of all time - both of them are also faster than any Olympic Marathon gold medalist, too.

Definitely better. It lowers the risk of it being an East African burn-off the entire way dropping everyone.

If it keeps Luke P in contention - would have given some of the better non-Africans a decent chance to race. Kawauchi, Ritz, Meb all could have been up there.

Also makes it far more feasible to see Rupp or Farah running - both will get run out of it at Berlin or London. In the US they'll be capable of racing it.

Chicago is now L.A.

runthecountry wrote:

Ho Hum wrote:

Unless there's 2 Dickson Chumbas, he's number 12 all time per the IAAF

http://www.iaaf.org/records/toplists/road-running/marathon/outdoor/men/senior

2:04 is legit, man.

I love it when the real facts are brought up. And Kitwara is number 11 of all time - both of them are also faster than any Olympic Marathon gold medalist, too.

How awesome is that?

Can you imagine Chicago advertising this?

Don't miss the opportunity to watch this EPIC race where the 11th best Marathon runner faces that 12th best Marathon runner.

Sarcasm OFF.

When I type in "chicago marathon" in google today, I get:

- Man Runs Chicago Marathon in Memory of Son, Former Running Partner

- How Notable Runners Fared at the 2015 Chicago Marathon (about celebrities

No mention of any of the winners.

help me out here.....if a 2:04 guy is in 2:04 shape, why does he need HELP to run that fast? Did every single training run leading up to this race have a 'pacer' so that he did not have to think about how fast he was going? The pure runner/racer in me is saying these guys are absolute pussies for complaining about the times. It's a marathon, not a 1500 at Oslo.

What was preventing someone from running sub 2:05 yesterday?

Didn't see anyone blocking the lead pack. Didn't see anyone trying to break early when the one guy pushed the pace.

Was their some kind of force holding them from running faster on their own?

Sorry, not going to let you get away with moving the goalposts. You were very wrong-- admit it, accept that you embarrassed yourself, and move on.

Old D2 Guy wrote:

post nups wrote:

That is definitely NOT the point of a race.

Depends on your point of view I s'pose. Any time I've run a race it's to run as fast as I can. To try and improve.

Interesting. When I race, I run to beat everyone.

Speaker wrote:

If it keeps Luke P in contention - would have given some of the better non-Africans a decent chance to race. Kawauchi, Ritz, Meb all could have been up there.

I think this is the heart of it. Some argue time is better, some that racing is better. Pinkowski is making the call that what is NOT debatable for marketing his race... having an American near the front IS better.

Luke P filled that role this time, and this race just got a whole lot more attractive to potential 2:07-2:10 lead pack runners who couldn't compete for the win in a 2:03-2:05 paced race with top african talent (AKA the Americans... well a few of them anyway... hopefully more soon).

The course is still a fast course, so the US guys who (let's face it) would not be competing for the win in a paced race, can now run in the lead pack and finish with respectable times.

I wonder if Pinkowski made this decision AFTER he had trouble filling out the top of the field? That would explain the bad communication to some of them about the no-rabbit situation.

I think it may be a good tactic for attracting American marathoners.

But it will knock it out of being considered a major marathon.

That's the trade-off.

Star wrote:

I think it may be a good tactic for attracting American marathoners.

But it will knock it out of being considered a major marathon.

That's the trade-off.

And maybe some more Euro's, Asians and South Americans. Why a lot of Kenyans and some Americans with a small spattering of Asian women.

Also, could another technique be used to limit the rabbit's over-all affect, but still provide some aid to the elites. Say, have the rabbits drop at the half-way point instead of dragging the elites as far as possible?

WAY BETTER! The sport cannot sustain itself on record attempts alone... I think 1-2 paced races out of the About-WMM is enough, let them race it out.

Lost a tone of respect for the Kenyans bitching about it... This is why the Ethiopians always win when it comes time to line up and race for the real medals.

Greater chance for upsets to happen (better story line imo). Honestly pacing ruins it, it's fine fore a few races here and there, but that day will come when someone will solo a 2:05-06 and it will be badass!

Nutella1 wrote:

How awesome is that?

Can you imagine Chicago advertising this?

Don't miss the opportunity to watch this EPIC race where the 11th best Marathon runner faces that 12th best Marathon runner.

Sarcasm OFF.

When I type in "chicago marathon" in google today, I get:

- Man Runs Chicago Marathon in Memory of Son, Former Running Partner

- How Notable Runners Fared at the 2015 Chicago Marathon (about celebrities

No mention of any of the winners.

Haha, serious fans don't look at major media headlines to know how the race went. Even with Berlin, which was won by arguably the best marathoner in the world right now (or as you might say "The 6th best Marathon runner"), the headlines read, "Nike shoe fail almost leads to disaster for [insert Kenyan name here]"

The fact of the matter is that you didn't realize how legit the top two guys are. 100th Kenyan all time is more like 2:07:xx, which is a completely different league than 2:04, as far as PRs are concerned.

I couldn't care less about the Chicago Marathon. My coworker told me a Kenyan won. Big deal, I then asked her what his name was. She said "Kip-something". Whatever.

Listen guys, I don't blame ya, it's the only thing you're good at but don't expect me to watch a "sports" where the "men" are all SKINNY/SCRAWNY. Who wants to see that. I watch football, baseball and CrossFit Games. Yep, sometimes you see concussions, broken legs and ATHLETES who have to vomit but you know they gave it their all.

And when you see a true athlete taken their shirt off, that's a different level of competition than when you have a jogger who just won Chicago who is ASHAMED to take his shirt off.

I hope the comments about being unfair to the Kenyans...seriously