Simple: a clean Webb vs a clean El G

El G was far superior but at his best, Webb's kick in the last 100m had a change of pace and top speed that El G surely could not manage with his preference for a slow buildup, like Athens 2004 where he picked up every 100m in the last two laps.

No one beats Webb if undoped. Only dopers beat Webb in his prime. A once in a lifetime talent.

I agree.

So let me ask this: if Webb wins, in his prime, vs. El G (or anyone else doping) is he still considered better?

This is kinda crazy to think: was/is he the best miler we've ever seen? Even with slower prs, I too would go with him over anyone else. Illogical? I say no.

Or put another way: if you cast away ethics and dope, are you then better only by our human created unit of time?

Met both while in college as they came through town. Should have asked them personally.

Webb for the win - in about 4:05

acad wrote:

This is kinda crazy to think: was/is he the best miler we've ever seen?

No.

acad wrote:

Even with slower prs, I too would go with him over anyone else. Illogical? I say no.

Jim Ryun was better.

reader of the forums wrote:

acad wrote:

This is kinda crazy to think: was/is he the best miler we've ever seen?

No.

acad wrote:

Even with slower prs, I too would go with him over anyone else. Illogical? I say no.

Jim Ryun was better.

Amphetamines. We already have evidence that the US team gave out amphetamines at the Lake Tahoe training camp Ryun trained at.

This is in no way intended to delegitimize Ryun. If we were to think of the greatest miler we must include him. But, if it came down to the last 100 it would be Webb (for me) based on this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1BZvfkk7-5Y

Cashier wrote:

reader of the forums wrote:

No.

Jim Ryun was better.

Amphetamines. We already have evidence that the US team gave out amphetamines at the Lake Tahoe training camp Ryun trained at.

Evidence of this spread comes from the hammer thrower Harold Connally,who testified in 1973, at the U.S. Senate sub-committee hearings on drugs andathletics, that he had become “hooked” on steroids in 1964.

33

By the MexicoCity Games, in 1968, things had advanced to the point that Dr. Tom Waddell,who placed sixth in the decathlon that year, told the

New York Times

that heestimated a full third of the U.S. track and field team-not just the field eventspecialists-had used steroids at the pre-Olympic training camp held at LakeTahoe.

34

(page 95)

Citations for 33 and 34:

33.

“Easy Opponent.”

L..A. Times.

p. 15.

34.

Tom Wolfe,

The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test

(New York: Farrar-Strauss-Glroux, 1968), p. 29

Hmmm.

I would pick the 12 US guys Bill Bowerman coached under 4 minutes on cinders in the 1960's...

Cashier wrote:

Evidence of this spread comes from the hammer thrower Harold Connally,who testified in 1973, at the U.S. Senate sub-committee hearings on drugs andathletics, that he had become “hooked” on steroids in 1964.

33

By the MexicoCity Games, in 1968, things had advanced to the point that Dr. Tom Waddell,who placed sixth in the decathlon that year, told the

New York Times

that he estimated a full third of the U.S. track and field team-not just the field event specialists-had used steroids at the pre-Olympic training camp held at LakeTahoe.

In other words -

He estimated that two thirds of the team DIDN'T use steroids.

Further, I missed the part where it said Jim was involved in that.

acad wrote:

This is in no way intended to delegitimize Ryun. If we were to think of the greatest miler we must include him. But, if it came down to the last 100 it would be Webb (for me) based on this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1BZvfkk7-5Y

I'd pick Jim based on this

implying that Webb wouldn't have smoked him. What a slow race! 3:38! Come on.

El G I was so much better than Webb that's it's hard to believe you even brought this up.

You do realize that Webb basically didn't win ANYTHING of note?

That last 300 is pretty much perfect.

Question then becomes, relative to surface/shoe/competition, does that pull him to a time equal to that of Webb?

My logic is Webb over Ryun based on Webb's faster time relative to their 300m kick.

You can't be serious. El G was so pumped full of PEDs he almost died after every race. I can't believe I even responded to this troll.

Plus think of it this way- if Webb was running a 3:50 1500 pace he could kick in 36.2 in a 300 too, easily.

>implying wrote:

implying that Webb wouldn't have smoked him. What a slow race! 3:38! Come on.

That race was on a cinder track. And a 10k had just been run before the 1500.

See -

(3min 19sec in if the link doesn't take you there)

Suddenly that 3:38.2 becomes 3:34.97. Not exactly slow, especially considering the last 300 (again, even faster on synthetic).

Webb never showed acceleration like that, and definitely not in a sub 3:35 race.

>implying wrote:

You can't be serious. El G was so pumped full of PEDs he almost died after every race. I can't believe I even responded to this troll.

Indeed, el guerrouj may have only been a 3-32/3-48 type without his sophisticated ped cocktail

It was pretty much the same recipe that lance Armstrong used

Epo

Growth hormone

Cortisone

Blood bag

Steroid

Testosterone

Had it not been for the drug, webb might have run slower than 3:35/3:50.