What the hell is up with Van Cortlandt Park? Iona and Arkansas race there - Only 1 guy breaks 26

Having raced at VCP several times in the past 5 years, the course that they run now is different from the traditional VCP 8k. Slightly harder and since 2012 for some reason it has run much slower.

Arkansas was at mssu as well this weekend and the times were much faster. That's probably where a majority of the A's were

It was very warm, and race went out in 5:20 for the mile. Course was same as it's been since they moved the start from the original course.

rojo wrote:

Can someone tell me what the hell was going on in the Bronx yesterday? How can two nationally ranked teams run VCP and only 1 guy breaks 26:00?

Was the course a) long or b) did they run off course or c) was it like 120 degrees (which would be weird as it was nice here yesterday in Baltimore)?

https://xc.tfrrs.org/results/xc/7750.html

1 Tonui, Frankline JR-3 Arkansas 25:59.5

2 Heymsfield, Christian JR-3 Arkansas 26:00.1

3 McDonald, Morgan SO-2 Wisconsin 26:10.1

4 Sandvold, Russell JR-3 Wisconsin 26:10.1

5 Miehe, Tyson FR-1 Wisconsin 26:10.1

Why are American's so concerned with times on xc. Noboy else at world level cares about times, its just a case of position. I know you call running around a gold course xc but still slight changes in going can change times a lot.

The Donger wrote:

smartie wrote:

How smart are all these college coach that they're so scared to race for real more than 5x a year?

Does the AD at each of these schools approve of spening thousands of dollars to go on a tempo run?

No wonder our sport gets dropped/ignored!

This.

If you want our sport to mean something you need to race. Administrators don't understand running but the understand wins and losses.

Bring back dual meets. Regular season needs to matter in qualifying. Sand yes, this is why our sport gets dropped.

My AD told me he likes cross country because anyone can do it. That's how these guys think.

You guys are absolutely right. All college sports should be designed to please the administration as much as possible. That's why all great sports movies feature the AD-character, who is the only person that the athletes and coaches are trying to impress. It's what we all grew up dreaming to do. If you can't get excited about making bureaucrats happy, can you even call yourself an athlete?

We need to get rid of these cowardly coaches like Mark Wetmore, Dave Smith, and Chris Miltenberg who are refusing to run their athletes into the ground on a weekly basis to create a win-loss record that looks vaguely like a football season. They're killing the sport!

Find any review of Running with the Buffaloes and you'll be amazed at how every single person says, "I couldn't finish this garbage because the teams weren't racing every week. They were too hung up on this periodization nonsense to try to ensure the best race at the end of the season. But I don't want to wait that long! What cowards! P.S. Sev dies."

Construction

The Donger wrote:

smartie wrote:

How smart are all these college coach that they're so scared to race for real more than 5x a year?

Does the AD at each of these schools approve of spening thousands of dollars to go on a tempo run?

No wonder our sport gets dropped/ignored!

This.

If you want our sport to mean something you need to race. Administrators don't understand running but the understand wins and losses.

Bring back dual meets. Regular season needs to matter in qualifying. Sand yes, this is why our sport gets dropped.

My AD told me he likes cross country because anyone can do it. That's how these guys think.

I'm not so sure about that.

Take NCAA Baskeball (Men's) - The # beginning each row is how many losses those teams had before wining the tournament. The point is, in today's environment it doesn't matter how many losses you have as long as you have a shot at the crown. (5 losses is over 15% of a 30 game season prior to the tournament, 9 losses is roughly 30%...)

11: Kansas (1988)

10: North Carolina State (1983), Villanova (1985)

9: Indiana (1981), Arizona (1997), Connecticut (2011)

7: Marquette (1977), Louisville (1986), Michigan (1989), Duke (1991), Michigan State (2000)

6: Kentucky (1958), Michigan State (1979), Connecticut (2004), Florida (2006)

5: Oregon (1939), CCNY (1950), UNLV (1990), Syracuse (2003), Florida (2007), Duke (2010)

rojo wrote:

silly rojo wrote:

weren't you just commenting yesterday that " why does anyone except the coach care about early season meets"

I don't care about who beats who but do care to know why the times were SO SO slow.

Someone said it's 8400. That's not what's listed on TFRRS.

Anyone?

They didn't run their top guys, and the relatively top guys who ran did it as a workout, it's a simple as that, someone just said Wisconsin was wearing flats

And how did you forget Wisco in the title? They're ranked too, ranked higher than Iona and Arkansas I believe...

The course is just super slow, thats all. mile was out real slow, and it may have been nice weather on the finish area but it got warmer throughout the day and it gets real hot inside the actual trails section. having run there for my college career, I can assure it its just because its a super slow course (the fordham coach changed it up a few years back to make it harder, added another hill loop somewhere)

its not that difficult of a question

JB800/1500 wrote:

The course is just super slow, thats all. mile was out real slow, and it may have been nice weather on the finish area but it got warmer throughout the day and it gets real hot inside the actual trails section. having run there for my college career, I can assure it its just because its a super slow course (the fordham coach changed it up a few years back to make it harder, added another hill loop somewhere)

its not that difficult of a question

Wait, what? I'm not very fast but I've run the various courses at VCP a LOT of times in all kinds of weather and imho no, it does not "get real hot inside the actual trails section" even when it's very hot on the flats [as it was a few weeks ago for the Isola 4M, for example.]

F'Ville not the same wrote:

Traditionally, we always went to the MO Southern Stampede in Joplin this last weekend. Enabled us to have a relatively short drive, and do our Sunday long run with quality. John knew what he was going. Why the Hogs feel the need to travel across the country to NY is completely beyond me.

Let's see - spend the weekend in NYC or spend the weekend in Joplin/Fayetteville. I can't imagine why anyone would choose to NYC either.

The course had to be 8K, it has never changed since we used to run it *(5.0 miles) back in the 1970's....except shortening the finish to accommodate 8K vs 5.0M. All the coaches know the start and finish and they are more than likely marked!

No way it was 8.4K!!

30:45XC1978 wrote:

The course had to be 8K, it has never changed since we used to run it *(5.0 miles) back in the 1970's....except shortening the finish to accommodate 8K vs 5.0M. All the coaches know the start and finish and they are more than likely marked!

No way it was 8.4K!!

Never changed? That's not true, they started doing construction like 7 years ago and changed the course to accommodate the construction.

30:45XC1978 wrote:

The course had to be 8K, it has never changed since we used to run it *(5.0 miles) back in the 1970's....except shortening the finish to accommodate 8K vs 5.0M. All the coaches know the start and finish and they are more than likely marked!

No way it was 8.4K!!

You have no idea what you're talking about. At all.

malmo wrote:

Good question.

http://www.icgaels.com/fls/14900/stats/mcrosscountry/2010XC/moc-coursemap.pdf

Ok who the hell designed this atrocity of a course? Why do a 2/3 mile loop around half of the Parade Ground instead of using the entire flats running around the tortoise and hare poles? This brilliant design also allows for minimal recovery between back hills and Cemetery as they do not loop around the flats after the back hill loop either. Construction was finished in 2012!! Utter rubbish.

I ran Van Cortland once when it hosted the US Cross Championships in 1990. The year Bob Kempainen broke Pat Porter's streak.

I hated that course. It was hazardous to me. You started on flat grass then took a turn into the woods with a trail with rocks everywhere, crazy short hills and steep downhills, and after going through that you finally got some relief running the last quarter mile on the flat and finished on cinders,.

It beat me up. As far as any college early season tri meet wouldn't surprise me if they were coached to take it easy.

I'm all for more challenging cross races but at this point in the year if you are too sore to do your mile repeats the following Tuesday its not a course I would be putting a team on in the early season..

They built a cricket specific area with 10 ovals that opened in 2013 and I don't think they allow the course to go onto the cricket fields that much any more. It's one of the only places to play cricket in NYC and there are a lot of clubs that play there. That's why they rerouted the course. There's a good chance there was cricket going on during the meet as well. If you look at the Iona course map, the course takes the turns on the loop at the edge of the cricket fields.

George Atlas wrote:

I ran Van Cortland once when it hosted the US Cross Championships in 1990. The year Bob Kempainen broke Pat Porter's streak.

I hated that course. It was hazardous to me. You started on flat grass then took a turn into the woods with a trail with rocks everywhere, crazy short hills and steep downhills, and after going through that you finally got some relief running the last quarter mile on the flat and finished on cinders,.

It beat me up. As far as any college early season tri meet wouldn't surprise me if they were coached to take it easy.

I'm all for more challenging cross races but at this point in the year if you are too sore to do your mile repeats the following Tuesday its not a course I would be putting a team on in the early season..

Course has been significantly upgraded in terms of footing although the short hills and roller coaster downhills in the back still remain. Never had a problem with it.

The course run for this particular meet was not the same as the old 5 mile course and it appears that it was a little long. Why it would be mapped out as such I don't know.

George Atlas wrote:

I ran Van Cortland once when it hosted the US Cross Championships in 1990. The year Bob Kempainen broke Pat Porter's streak.

I hated that course. It was hazardous to me. You started on flat grass then took a turn into the woods with a trail with rocks everywhere, crazy short hills and steep downhills, and after going through that you finally got some relief running the last quarter mile on the flat and finished on cinders,.

.

The course is now a paved super-highway. Doesn't resemble what you ran on, however exaggerated.