Was Steve Magness Wrong?

My thoughts?Steve Magness may be completely right about Salazar, but just wrong about what is an anti-doping rule violation.Based on the publicly known evidence, USADA will clear Salazar on most counts because Magness (and all the others) have failed to state a claim under USADA's jurisdiction, and the rest for lack of evidence, if not for statute of limitations. Unless Goucher and others have discreetly come to USADA with their "real" evidence, that hasn't been made public, USADA will have no choice but to dismiss the claims.1) His "photo evidence" is ambiguous, and cannot be corroborated.However, the use of legal testosterone supplements by other athletes has been corroborated by some of the 20 plus/minus athletes/staff coming forward.2) Alberto's sons are not US athletes subject to USADA/WADA's rules. At worst, if they are considered "support staff", Alberto's sons will be banned, but not Alberto (who has a prescription), or any athlete (who were not part of the experiment). Maybe Jeffrey Brown will be banned.3) Prescription drug abuse, of non-banned substances, is not an anti-doping violation. USADA can do nothing, except appeal to WADA that it should be against the rules -- something they already have done (which implies that it must not yet be). Or they could handover the evidence to the right legal bodies.Mark Daly openly asks what the point of the UKA investigation was? I agree that that investigation was a complete waste of limited resources, but it was forced by Mark himself. I have the same question for him -- what was the point of the documentary? To force organisations like UKA and USADA to waste their limited resources investigating misguided claims and eliminating unnecessary doubt?

Cowl wrote:

Was Steve Magness wrong about Salazar and NOP?

Looks like UK Athletics and WADA have cleared Salazar. There was nothing illegal going on. Was Steve just young and disillusioned falling in love with an athlete of NOP that was jaded?

Any thoughts?

Cleared = don't have enough evidence for a conviction

translation , they are still cheaters but not enough to prosecute SAD !!!

It does not mean they are innocent !!!!

reader of the forums wrote:

Further, he had a photo showing Rupp had started taking testosterone as a teenager.

He had a photo that I would not have known was expressing anything even remotely like what he said it was unless I was told prior what I was supposed to be looking at. Same thing with the pill bottle that Kara came up with (that was mysteriously blatantly labelled, considering how clandestine this whole operation was supposed to be) that didn't even match Salazar's writing.

Magness gave the document to USADA in 2012 when he found it.

It was past there 8 year statute of limitations so they can't use it directly.

He didn't give it to them in 2009 or 2010 because he didn't have it....so it was impossible to.

Are you apologist even trying?

themanontherun wrote:

Same thing with the pill bottle that Kara came up with (that was mysteriously blatantly labelled,

Drugs are mass produced. So are the labels.

Oh, and FYI, you can report stuff to USADA. They contact the sports federation seeking directions about what to do with it.

bobgob, i think you're exactly right.

magness's (and kara's) response to salazar's rebuttal was probably the most discouraging thing to read. they really didn't have nearly enough to go to the media. honestly, i applaud them for going to usada, and i think we should foster an environment where we encourage athletes to do so, but they did NOT convince me of NOP doping. i know people don't trust usada, but its not like the media has a better track record. yes there have been outstanding examples of investigative journalism exposing real drug cheats, but for every great report, you can find 50 articles of mudslinging that just recycles whatever rumor they pick hear a whisper of. im pissed at lance armstrong more than ever these days because it makes it impossible to have a discussion on doping because the discussion goes like this: "they have no evidence!" "yeah, but they didn't have evidence on lance either!" "they didn't test positive!" "lance didn't either!" using this logic, you can argue that everyone is a doper.

If you're going to go to the media and drag peoples' names through the mud, you BETTER be right and you BETTER have evidence. honestly, regarding specific allegations, i think they are wrong about rupp getting testosterone and the note on testosterone medication isn't convincing to me, especially because they have extensive documented history of legal testosterone-boosting supplements. i know the documentation doesn't go back that far, but i think its resonable to suggest that they were using it back then too. they may be right about the thyroid stuff, which if true is stupid and illegal on salazar's part. but why was kara so silent on clarifying that after encouraging so much openness? i know this next statement isn't popular, but its also not a banned substance and magness himself says its not helpful if you don't need it. so i would say even so, its not doping, its just a stupid way to run your shop, and i'd be fine with consequences for that, but keep rupp's and farah's name out of the discussion.

the weak rebuttals by magness and goucher really didn't help their case. it was actually somewhat of a relief as a fan of a number of athletes in the program.

The only serious thing Sleazy can be punished for is his testosterone experiments on his sons. And even that is probably too long ago.

Pop_pop!_v2.1 wrote:

Drugs are mass produced. So are the labels.

WTF!!! Labels with original AlSal's handwriting are mass produced? Who knew.

rojo wrote:

Cowl wrote:

Was Steve Magness wrong about Salazar and NOP?

Looks like UK Athletics and WADA have cleared Salazar. There was nothing illegal going on. Was Steve just young and disillusioned falling in love with an athlete of NOP that was jaded?

Any thoughts?

Yes lots of thoughts.

What makes you thinks either of the following is true - that UK Athletics cleared Salazar or that WADA has?

Expecting UK Athletics to get to the bottom of this would be like expecting USATF to get the bottom of it. No chance.

Regardless, UK Athletics specificially said they wouldn't comment on the specifics of their investigation at the request of USADA so it seems that USADA/WADA's investigation is still going on so they clearly haven't given the 'All clear.'

USDA/WADA are not required to give a public announcement of on going investigations and results.If something leaks its a PR move on their behalf.

Magness is in love with his so called expertise and delusional theories of what may or may not have happened. He writes well so he gets a nod but if you really look behind the content its nothing exceptional or breakthrough as he may want you to believe.As a hands on coach with his so called applied theories results speak volumes, he is below average.

BTW have we cleared Paula yet on her positive blood values that are factual with physical evidence?

2 years in a program and all you have is a questionable picture of a bottle and questionable piece of paper???? Like that's it????

wheres the mounds of evidence that kara said would come forth after her 16:00 at US nationals???

Believe the swoosh wrote:

He didn't give it to them in 2009 or 2010 because he didn't have it....so it was impossible to.

Are you apologist even trying?

He didn't have to? Wait, a guy who supposedly believed in a clean sport didn't have to give clear evidence of doping to USADA? And that it was impossible to do so? Do you actually believe that horsehit? That it was impossible for someone to anonymously notify or tip off USADA of historical doping at NOP. How naive or stupid must you be?

The reality is this, Magness supposedly sat on doping evidence and only released it once he had left (was kicked out?) from NOP and decided to be an advocate for a clean sport. Sorry, that boat sailed when you decided to sit on evidence for your own personal reasons. The fact that he delayed the release of the evidence from the moment he had it means that the supposed evidence is useless, especially when you consider that the crucial witness who could corroborate his evidence has already died.

"Obviously since our (UKA) review was set up USADA announced that it was conducting an investigation into allegations made in respect of staff within the Oregon Project. USADA is clearly the right body to look at anti-doping issues. They have asked us not to give any further details of our review until their work has concluded. We respect their request and are of course giving them our fullest support and co-operation."

jlakljdf;afkjfjlksk wrote:

2 years in a program and all you have is a questionable picture of a bottle and questionable piece of paper???? Like that's it????

wheres the mounds of evidence that kara said would come forth after her 16:00 at US nationals???

Keep praying that your daddy doesn't get caught: Tony, Maria and Alex, the fruits of AlSal's loins. If daddy gets caught all three of you will be looking for "real" jobs. Maybe jobs as Guinea Pigs for drug testing.

Lets be clear wrote:

BTW have we cleared Paula yet on her positive blood values that are factual with physical evidence?

Yes: two were explained with being just two months after altitude, and the third with a 20% dehydration after the half marathon at 75 degrees.

I missed the announcement of anyone clearing Salazar.

My guess is that the best Salazar can hope for is that USADA will say it could find no evidence. That is far different from clearing someone however. Kind of like not guilty is not the same thing as innocent.

luv2run wrote:

I missed the announcement of anyone clearing Salazar.

My guess is that the best Salazar can hope for is that USADA will say it could find no evidence. That is far different from clearing someone however. Kind of like not guilty is not the same thing as innocent.

Sigh.... USADA has no authority to do anything.

We already know Statute of Limitations kicks in for most of the claims.

The IOC's threshold for testing positive for Testosterone is 4x (!) the human norm, so Test doping is okay.

The IAAF is not testing anyone positive that they feel "matter" to the sport, and Nike matters.

Therefore, Nike's doping program rolls on.

None of which have anything to do with Magness' claims.

pop_pop!_v2.1 wrote:

Alberto. Dude. Everyone knows you run a doping program.

Do you seriously believe that "everyone" "knows" that NOP is doping? Or that anyone who disagrees with you is wicked instead of stupid or careful?

Exactly. They were at the program for years, they had the inside access. Are you telling me they couldn't find documents, more photos and even record conversations in secret? The accusations leveled at Salazar along with the evidence provided (limited) stinks of bitterness.

The hilarious thing is, Magness is being referred to as a whistle-blower. No, a whistle-blower exposes his company or program while they're still there. Not a year or two after they've left (kicked out?).

Nobody seems interested in the fact that Salazar's rebuttal seem to contradict Magness' and Goucher's statements (which has no evidence as far as we know).

Example 1 - Magness claimed that Salazar placed a suspicious package in a book in order to get it to Rupp. He claimed he didn't know what it was and that it was dodgy. Salazar how refutes that by provided an email exchange that showed Magness knew what was in the package and that it wasn't suspicious at all. Salazar even provided evidence of Rupp's doctor writing up the medication for Rupp and Salazar even provided an email exchange in which he notified British officials that if Rupp's medication didn't get to him on time, then he'd have to have one from a UK based doctor.

Example 2 - Goucher claimed that Salazar wasn't happy with her weight and that she should try and abuse the rules to get round it. Salazar refutes this by showing us an en email exchange between himself and Goucher's doctor in which he praises her weight. Goucher then moves the goal post and claims she was referring to another period in 2011. Fine, but why didn't you give us the exact detail of when Salazar wasn't happy with your weight? Why make a vague accusation?

Those two examples are just two of many that could be used. It's no wonder Salazar is confident of being cleared. Hes' the only one who seems to provide clear, detailed evidence.

Even Gocuher's weak assertion that Rupp must have been doping because he said he was tired a few weeks before he broke the America record is laughable. For example, Bekele was so tired and out of form/shape at the same WC 10k race as Rupp that he couldn't even complete the race and dropped out after 16 laps or something. A few weeks later, in the same race as Rupp in Brussels, Bekele runs 26:43, the fastest 10k time this decade and the fastest since 2008. Was Bekele doping too? See how laughable Goucher's insinuation is?

Rhetorical Questions # 1 & 2 wrote:

pop_pop!_v2.1 wrote:

Alberto. Dude. Everyone knows you run a doping program.

Do you seriously believe that "everyone" "knows" that NOP is doping? Or that anyone who disagrees with you is wicked instead of stupid or careful?

I did not say any of those things.

If you want to ignore facts, go ahead. I can't help you. But, don't then argue your fantasies are fact.