Did the Beijing WC prove that Arthur Lydiard method is outdated?

Idiot alert wrote:

"Aerobic threshold" is around marathon pace

Aerobic threshold isn't defined outside two lame articles that Maffetone referenced to sell his books. That "threshold" doesn't exist, so it makes perfect sense for idiots to declare it to be whatever they want.

You can post under as many different names as you'd like, but that won't make you right.

You can have periodization and follow the principles of Lydiard but still have some interval work year round.

Wasn't it the time he absolutely destroyed Beatty and the rest of the Igloi trained LATC guys? 1963?? Anyhow, it's on youtube and Snell's last 220yards is awesome!

There is a great chapter on Snell and this race in particular in Ron Clarke and Norman Harris's book "The Lonely Breed"

karma chamaleon wrote:

You can post under as many different names as you'd like, but that won't make you right.

You can have periodization and follow the principles of Lydiard but still have some interval work year round.

And you can keep insisting modern training is still Lydiard because every runner still has to basically run.

culture club wrote:

karma chamaleon wrote:

You can post under as many different names as you'd like, but that won't make you right.

You can have periodization and follow the principles of Lydiard but still have some interval work year round.

And you can keep insisting modern training is still Lydiard because every runner still has to basically run.

Okay brother, since you are the expert, what do you think constitutes Lydiard principles?

karma chamaleon wrote:

You can post under as many different names as you'd like, but that won't make you right.

You can have periodization and follow the principles of Lydiard but still have some interval work year round.

Sure, just water out those principles and label them Lydiard principles, then you can claim that Lydiard isn't outdated.

The strict periodization Lydiard promoted is dead. The hill phase never even survived infancy. No one runs tons of MP paced workouts like Lydiard advised (except marathoners). And the physiology he explained his training with is outdated. Long intervals at HM-3k pace are the staple workouts of most elite and average runners today, not tempos at marathon pace. Long intervals are totally absent from Lydiard training. Sure, tempos are a part of training too. But do you think Lydiard invented tempos? Frankly, I don't doubt you do.

Can some of the Lydidiots please formulate some "Lydiard training principles" that have survived half a century and weren't in common use before Lydiard entered the scene? Have a look at the training guys like Zatopek, Kuts and Edelen did before you answer. (I know one, and it's important, but I want to see what you come up with.)

I don't know if it is worth writing out a response to someone who thinks that strict periodization is dead.

karma chamaleon wrote:

culture club wrote:

And you can keep insisting modern training is still Lydiard because every runner still has to basically run.

Okay brother, since you are the expert, what do you think constitutes Lydiard principles?

Oh stop it, everyone knows what Lydiard principles are. It's been re-hashed a million times over the last 50 years.

karma chamaleon wrote:

I don't know if it is worth writing out a response to someone who thinks that strict periodization is dead.

You are correct. It is still alive amongst the less successful athletes.

already fast wrote:

gringonash wrote:

Actually, Snell's basic speed was no more than average compared to his competitors. The difference was that since he had a huge aerobic engine (ummmm Lydiard training?), at the end of a race he had most of his speed left. Competitors without said engine had to burn a larger portion their speed just to get to the same point in the race. Snell appeared to be "much faster", but it was an illusion- he just had much more left at the end of the race, (again, because aerobic power brought him to the same point in the race), so he appeared to be faster than competitors with even more basic speed.

Myth. Snell had more basic speed than all but a couple of his competitors.. His speed was what initially drew Lydiard's attention.

Lydiard commented that Snell was the slowest sprinter in both the 1960 and 1964 Olympic 800 finals. I imagine the opposite was probably true in the 1964 Olympic 1500.

AFewThoughts wrote:

Coaches have learned through 50 more years of experience (with the benefit of Lydiard's and others writings) and experimentation.

Doesn't this mean that Lydiard method is indeed "outdated"?

This just shows that you haven´t read his books, idiot. In the phase following the hill phase there are repats of 600-1600m length.

Do you really think he wrote his later books?

Stuff was added in after his original ideas became outdated and he tried to keep them relevant by changing things and hoping people wouldn't notice.

I'm not sure how well this meets your criteria, but in 2008 Nobby and Lorraine Moller brainstormed and came up with these 5 principles of Lydiard:1) Developing aerobic capacity as foundation2) Feeling-based3) Response Regulated4) Sequential/Balanced Program5) Peaking

"I owe my success as a long sprint coach to Lydiard's hill training," says Jim Bush, long time coach at UCLA who coached John Smith and Quincy Watts.

http://www.amazon.com/Bud-Winter-Presents-Arthur-Lydiard/dp/0984612025

These days, just about everyone, including....

Usain Bolt, Glen Mills

Peter Coe

Said Aouita

Abdelkader Kada (El Guerrouj's coach)

Jama Aden

Ethioipians (Kostre)

Canova.....

use concurrent training. You train all systems all the time, only varying the relative emphasis of various systems. All of these people, particularly including El Guerrouj and the Ethiopians, do intervals all season. These intervals go from aerobic power to short intervals/short rest over the season, but they are intervals. And, obviously, people training this way are going much faster than Lydiard's people. If Lydiard actually worked as claimed, all those 800 people cheating with suspicious blood profiles would be using Lydiard. The reason they don't is that it doesn't work as well.

But the Lydiard cultist wannabe's can't train that hard, so they write big numbers for mileage in their log books and make believe they're athletes. They wouldn't survive a week on a Jama Aden plan.

Here is an article on Canova's training of "specific endurance" with a relevant quote. Though this article is from 2014, so it is probably outdated...

"If you try a Specific Endurance phase of training without a sufficient background (sufficient base of Aerobic and Speed Support) you will likely breakdown from fatigue and staleness and the outcome will be far worse than if you had raced without this type of training."

http://eliterunningcoach.com/category/coaching-with-canova/

This reads very much like what Lydiard preached when saying that the base work prepared you to run hard workouts and races without breaking you down. Eventually if speed is continued, a runner would go stale. Again, Lydiard base is a lot of high aerobic running and strides and drills. Sounds like they are advocating the same base period to me.

I once read a Kenyan coach saying that the difference in training between a middle distance runner and a marathoner was primarily in the last couple of months before a goal race. Sounds like periodized training.

They absolutely are doing different types of interval workouts in November than they are in July.

Boom. Periodization.

A Fresh batch wrote:

So why didn't Arthur just come up with a new batch of NZ athletes every five years or so? He lived for another 40 years.

By contrast the Africans have been prominent every year since Keino .

Let's also not lose sight of the fact that only Snell actually ran what would be considered really fast today.

Lydiard was not just a great coach; he was great at pissing people off.