Why would the clean ones beat the doped ones?
Good question!
And why would the weaker ones start with doping, if they see that the winners are clean?
Why would the clean ones beat the doped ones?
Good question!
And why would the weaker ones start with doping, if they see that the winners are clean?
sol1 wrote:
Why would the clean ones beat the doped ones?Good question!
And why would the weaker ones start with doping, if they see that the winners are clean?
Because they aren't winning.
jjjjjjj wrote:
Renato, you know the blood values of a number of the top Kenyans, for some over a significant period, and you know their training, but you don't know whether they took drugs to put them at those values. The video indicates that drug use is very prevalent. Why would the better athletes not have more incentive, more contact with European coaches/agents, and more means to dope? Why would the clean ones beat the doped ones?
The IAAF/WADA rules permit doping. It seems Mr. Canova hasn't read them.
Great video. Lining up to shoot up in Iten.
The story is now one of the two leads on the CNN website. LetsRun's website, and the Brothers Johnson, went bat s__t crazy over Salazar. Where is that same passion when the story is world wide about hundreds of athletes and numerous countries? And for those who claim this does not have an effect in the slightest their judgment of Farah, I'm pleased that I have nothing to do with them when they are in a circumstance in which one has to weigh evidence.
And good tweets on the story by Nick Willis and Kara Goucher.
Here's the thing, Farah and Rupp and Centro and every other NOP is a doper.
Epo only helps the lazy 2nd tier Kenyans trying to emulate the clean athletes who are faster
Epo has no effect on the top tier of clean athletes and may even slow them down
Makes sense to me
Montesquieu wrote:
The story is now one of the two leads on the CNN website. LetsRun's website, and the Brothers Johnson, went bat s__t crazy over Salazar. Where is that same passion when the story is world wide about hundreds of athletes and numerous countries? And for those who claim this does not have an effect in the slightest their judgment of Farah, I'm pleased that I have nothing to do with them when they are in a circumstance in which one has to weigh evidence.
It's the weekend. I have to imagine that when people are back at work tomorrow, there will be a lot more discussion of this.
Renato,
The way the top athletes respond then, do you essentially see rises in blood volume without an equal rise in RBC per unit of blood? So, more blood/plasma overall as a response to steady training, and a higher absolute hemoglobin mass, but actually a lower hematocrit and therefore less viscosity?
Whereas lesser athletes do not get much of a blood volume increase, and instead their body tries to adapt with increased hematocrit, but due to viscosity increase it does them little good in terms of athletic performance?
Renato Canova wrote:
This is exactly what happens. I'm curious to see the values creating so many suspicions.
If some scientist has suspicions about doping, looking at the values of many top athletes of endurance, he needs to have some longitudinal data about these athletes, since looking some single data it's not possible to have any idea.
The values of the athletes of endurance are very different one from another, and never it's possible to compare the values of different athletes among them.
For example, Gelindo Bordin won OG 1988 having 12.8 of Hb and 39.7 of Hct in the last blood test he did in Italy, after his best "super test", about two weeks before his victory. These data are obviously far from the average of the best Marathon runners, and nobody thinks possible to win Olympics with similar levels.
On the other side, during a congress I had in Quito (Ecuador) in 1998 about the effects of High Altitude Training, we received the info that the AVERAGE of normal people living on the Ande between 3000 and 4000m regarding Hb and Hct is 19-20, and 58-62 (and nobody of them is a very strong runner of endurance).
With all the Chinese Team, last year I had a long period in altitude (2400m) in Duoba before Asian Games, and, because there is a lab in the Provincial Training Center, I had blood tests every week, since I wanted to see not only the values before and after altitude (like I could do several times in the past, when I was in Sestriere or St. Moritz), but the weekly development of the adaptation in those conditions.
The final resul was very surprising : the athletes improving more consistantly (Ding Changqin, 15'55" before altitude, in Asian Games 2nd in 10000 with 31'53" fruit of 16'20" + 15'33", and 3 days later 3rd in 5000m with 15'12" ; Zhao Jing, 2'02" PB the previous year, 2'07" before training in altitude, then able running 1'59"48 ; Li Zhenzhu, two years without competitions of steeple, 9'53" in 2013 and 9'35" (silver medal) in the race)
had values LOWER than the values they had before going altitude, with no improvement in the number of RBC, and the same MCV (globular volume), while the athletes with increased values were not able to improve their seasonal bests.
In the past, I tested several Kenyan athletes, finding big differences in their values. The only common behavior was that, everytime their shape became better (because they were able running faster), all thei values decreased.
For example, Christopher Kosgei, the only golf medal for Kenya in WCh 1999, was another example of athletes with very low Hb (about 12) and Hct under 40, while his Brother Stephen Cherono (alias Shaheen), current WR holder, had at the beginning of every season, after some period of resting, values about 17 and 47, going at the time of his WR to levels of 15.5 and 43.
The big differences are in the affinity between Hb and O2. Everybody continues to speak about the "increased ability to transport Oxygen" taking EPO, but nobody speaks about "how much Oxygen there is at your disposal for being transported". With a bigger lorry we don't have any advantage, if the items that have to be transported are not so numerous to fill the lorry itself, because, also with a smaller lorry, we have enough possibility to transport the same amount of material.
And also, there are too many variables to consider for having right suspicions.
For example, an athlete can have 50 of Hct with 6 millions RBC and 83.3 MCV, or with 5 millions RBC and 100 MCV : this seems the same Hct, but the behavior of these two different situation is the same, looking at the ability to "catch" O2 from the air and to transport to the cells, or is different ?
The reality is that, till now, there is not ONE SINGLE RESEARCH on the top kenyan and ethiopian living and training in altitude.
When Shaheen bettered the WR, some physiologist asked me to test him, and I refused. Why ? Because the only test they do is Always the same, using the same protocol in order to compare the data, and all these data are completely useless, since they can only look at a STATIC PICTURE of the athlete when is in top shape. I asked, instead, to follow all the period of training, for explaining and understanding the modifications we produce with proper training in the body, from point A (for example, 3 months before the WR) till point B (the moment of WR). Training is a DYNAMIC PROCESS, and normally scientists don't know what happens during this process.
I strongly doubt the two Australian scientists have data about the best kenyan and ethiopian athletes, tested with continuity, during their normal period of training.
Last thing : I'm, of course, sorry for the Death of Geoffrey Kipketer Tarno. But he was an athlete who practically didn't exist : never running 10 km under 30' or a Marathon under 2 hr 25' ; in other words, an athlete NOT IN TOP 1000 KENYAN RUNNERS.
We never denied the fact there is doping in Kenya : in 2011, myself informed AK of this problem, with many weak athletes cheated by local doctors and pharmacists, without any control.
But I strongly deny that the top runners are involved. They are not so stupid, and not so desperated, to use something that well know doesn't have any effect, compared with their full training.
So, to compare the doping in Russia (used by the most part of the best athletes) with the doping in Kenya (used by poor desperated, with very little talent compared with the talent of the top runners) is something completely wrong. And, if somebody wants now to speak about Rita Jeptoo and Mathew Kisorio (the only two "bigs" positive), i have to use one word only : they were two idiots.
Coach, if naturally high Hct/RBC doesn't confer an advantage, doesn't that make it even more suspicious that that there are so many medalists with mud-blood four standard deviations from the norm?
ish wrote:
Montesquieu wrote:The story is now one of the two leads on the CNN website. LetsRun's website, and the Brothers Johnson, went bat s__t crazy over Salazar. Where is that same passion when the story is world wide about hundreds of athletes and numerous countries? And for those who claim this does not have an effect in the slightest their judgment of Farah, I'm pleased that I have nothing to do with them when they are in a circumstance in which one has to weigh evidence.
It's the weekend. I have to imagine that when people are back at work tomorrow, there will be a lot more discussion of this.
Yeah, right. If this was about a documentary outing the Salazar team, it would not have taken a day for it to be Front Page. The Brojo's would have to have actual testicles, to admit their egregious bias against Salazar et. al.
Instead, they say this documentary makes them optimistic that doping isn't worse. They're through the looking glass. White is Black, and Black is White in their chambre d'echo.
MAKES MO SENSE.....
not even one ethiopian case on list.........
bekele would had bloods off scale with
free reign on micera till 2008
like shaheen .
Also why didnt iaaf retrotest for micera from summer 2008 .
DOWN goes bekele ,shaheen and others.
canova repeat why are'nt you coaching
any of the chinese men.
that leaked info is clearly done on purpose
with russia being pushed as baddest
of bad .
when comes to men can only think of
borza.
seb coe has the presidency in the bag.
jjjjjjj wrote:
Alem Techale's death was also the end of Bekele's absolute dominance, I believe. An article from back then questioning whether this had to do with drugs, possibly administered by Wolhfahrt, the famous doctor of lots of top athletes. She had won world junior or youth 1500m and was thought to be one of Ethiopia's next stars. She was listed as 18.
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/more-sport/athletics/mystery-of-marathon-proportions-over-ethiopian-runner-s-death-1-1401552
Thanks for that article, another piece in the puzzle.; hadn't seen that one before.
From previous articles, I knew G. Dibaba's older sister, T. Dibaba, had seen 'healing hans', for 'injuries', and wondered, after G. Dibaba's recent WR, whether she was one of his clients, too.
Maybe the wealthy athletes that can afford him can claim they never doped, under the pretext of not actually knowing what all is in the syringes.
Renato Canova wrote:
But I strongly deny that the top runners are involved. They are not so stupid, and not so desperated, to use something that well know doesn't have any effect, compared with their full training.
@Renato:
Rita Jeptoo
Gets pregnant and comes back better than before. 2h18m in Boston.
What really happens when women have a child you can see with Kara Goucher. She never got back to where she was before, despite thyroid medication.
EPO is a wonder drug and it works very well. The fact that Rita never had a blood test in Kenya (according to Hajo Seppelt documentary) tells a clear picture.
AK basically insures people that they will not get tested while training inside Kenya. That is the truth!
@Renato:
What about testosterone?
According to the documentary, you can simply walk into a doctors office in Kenya and get a testosterone injection (and never get tested for it). We know from cycling (and other sports) that this is a very powerful drug, especially for women. Improves recovery and basically allows you to squeeze in another hard session per week.
So, does testosterone work on Kenyans?
Nutella1 wrote:
@Renato:
What about testosterone?
According to the documentary, you can simply walk into a doctors office in Kenya and get a testosterone injection (and never get tested for it). We know from cycling (and other sports) that this is a very powerful drug, especially for women. Improves recovery and basically allows you to squeeze in another hard session per week.
So, does testosterone work on Kenyans?
Mathew Kisorio tested positive for steroids in Kenya. Rita Jeptoo tested positice for EPO in Kenya.
Augusto E. Perez wrote:
Mathew Kisorio tested positive for steroids in Kenya. Rita Jeptoo tested positice for EPO in Kenya.
According to the documentary, she wasn't tested once in the past 10 years prior to her positive test.
Coach Canova,If we look at Jeptoo's doping timeline, she improved ~2min in marathon after about the time she started doping (after she switched coaches as her time with you had stopped improving). I don't see why she's an idiot in this case, besides getting caught. If anything, she's an idiot for getting caught.PLUS, it demonstrates that even the best KENYAN runners can benefit from doping even though in their previously natural progression to their body limit in the sport they did not require doping in manipulating blood numbers. Your examples, though excessive, do NOT prove the top athletes won't get a lift in performance from doping after they reach their peak.
Renato Canova wrote:
So, to compare the doping in Russia (used by the most part of the best athletes) with the doping in Kenya (used by poor desperated, with very little talent compared with the talent of the top runners) is something completely wrong. And, if somebody wants now to speak about Rita Jeptoo and Mathew Kisorio (the only two "bigs" positive), i have to use one word only : they were two idiots.
Nutella1 wrote:
According to the documentary, she wasn't tested once in the past 10 years prior to her positive test.
Wrong. She didn't have any blood tests in Kenya. There were urine tests.