uhhh, Lemaitre? Seriously, are you purposely ignoring him?
Andre DeGrasse: most likely clean guy under 10/20 ever
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In the relay, De Grasse ran down Bromell like a cheetah running down a turtle.
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Bonstad wrote:
In the relay, De Grasse ran down Bromell like a cheetah running down a turtle.
Brommell was injured. Although that does raise the question why the hell he was on the anchor (they new he was injured beforehand it wasn't like it occurred midrace). Why didn't they put in Bracy or Webb? -
coach d wrote:
...
Improvements in acceleration do not translate into higher max velocity, so a 2% faster 20-40m does not imply a 2% faster overall sprint. Gaining weight impacts speed endurance, and that's just as much true for Bolt as it is for Salazar's guys. Also, that 2% in 40m speed came from a 20% increase in squat strength, and it appears that a "meager" 10% gain improves nothing. For somebody starting out with, say, a 7 second 40m time and a 300 pound squat, getting up to 360 gets you a couple of tenths and maybe 400-450 gets you 0.3. But you might ask Ben Johnson how easy it is to up a 600 pound squat by 120 pounds, even on steroids.
All of this makes me wonder if the people like Powell, Gay, Rodgers, Blake...are doing all these drugs, getting busted, and not getting anything practical.
So you think Ben Johnson dropped from being a 10+ runner to 9.79 by changing his form?
Compare Ben's build in 1984 with that in 1988.
Flo Jo's another example.
Speed comes via power.
Skinny sprinters aren't fast enough, that's why we see so few of them.
Is Bolt at 207lbs as fast as he was at 195? Injuries, age and motivation take a toll. -
Niekerk is clean.
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WVK wrote:
Niekerk is clean.
I'll take Niekerk over Degrasse of being clean, any day. Whatever granny is whipping up in her kitchen for WVN, it's nothing compared to the PEDs Degrasse is on.
And don't forget Degrasse has a huge Puma contract, just like Usain. And I'm know how many letsrun members believe is Usain is dirty. -
Bat with no wings wrote:
I'll take Niekerk over Degrasse of being clean, any day. Whatever granny is whipping up in her kitchen for WVN, it's nothing compared to the PEDs Degrasse is on.
And don't forget Degrasse has a huge Puma contract, just like Usain. And I'm know how many letsrun members believe is Usain is dirty.
DeGrasse as a college athlete (USC)
P.B : 9"92 (100m) - 19"88(200m) 2015
DeGrasse as a pro with a HUUUUUUGE Puma contract
P.B : 9"91 (100m) -19"80(200m) 2016
Whatever drugs puma is feeding him, it does not work well. Also lol at WvN being any cleaner, he trashed MJ 17 yr old WR and comes from a country whose Antidoping lab was suspended this year (see Ross Tucker thread).
The whole Grandma thing is a smokescreen, can't believe people are so naive... -
There are more drugs available than steroids. Most sprinters have gotten busted for stimulants, which would have nothing to do with their physical size.
Here is a photo of Mike Rodgers two months before he got popped:
http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Yohan+Blake+Daniel+Bailey+Aviva+London+Grand+x5Ea8sKwpU8l.jpg
That distance runners or cyclists have taken testosterone and not gotten the jacked look also shows that drug use doesn't automatically show up in visible change in physique. A photo of Tom Danielson in one of his last races before getting popped for testosterone:
http://keyassets.timeincuk.net/inspirewp/live/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2015/08/WATSON_00004258-034-630x419.jpg (In green)
Or Floyd Landis the day he got caught with Testosterone:
http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/floyd-landis-of-the-usa-and-phonak-in-action-during-stage-17-of-the-picture-id71489668
And finally, this guy also used Testosterone... (notice "skeletor" in the URL...):
https://walshworld.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/skeletor.jpg -
I thought most people believed that Frankie Fredericks was clean.
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Drugs,Drugs,Drugs! wrote:
People need to look at photos when sprinters were "cleaner" and you will see much higher body fat levels. It's much harder to get your body fat to crazy levels when clean as your energy levels won't be the same as drugged up athletes.
Bull. Shit.
Do some training and you won't be so fking fat. -
One thing I didn't include in my OP was his ridiculous UNTRAINED talent. As a junior in high school, he jumped into a race and ran 11 seconds in basketball shots and converse basketball shoes:
http://heavy.com/sports/2016/08/andre-de-grasse-canada-sprinter-net-worth-track-2016-usain-bolt-rio-olympics-debolt/
Here he is blowing away the field in borrowed spikes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPegxF4ux1w
This is like a kid running a 4:20 mile without training his first go. Just absurd natural ability. -
coach d wrote:
Bacon, lettuce, testosterone wrote:
If that 2% increase in 40m time also translates to 100m time, take 9.9 and subtract 2% and see if you think guys would be willing to cheat for that.
That's on the order of what I think Gatlin got with the help of the Nike Lab since he signed with them, but it's not that simple.
Here's a review of literature that shows that power development in the gym essentially does not transfer:
http://www.fisioex.ufpr.br/resources/BE711/BE711---Young-IJSPP-2006.pdf
Improvements in acceleration do not translate into higher max velocity, so a 2% faster 20-40m does not imply a 2% faster overall sprint. Gaining weight impacts speed endurance, and that's just as much true for Bolt as it is for Salazar's guys. Also, that 2% in 40m speed came from a 20% increase in squat strength, and it appears that a "meager" 10% gain improves nothing. For somebody starting out with, say, a 7 second 40m time and a 300 pound squat, getting up to 360 gets you a couple of tenths and maybe 400-450 gets you 0.3. But you might ask Ben Johnson how easy it is to up a 600 pound squat by 120 pounds, even on steroids.
All of this makes me wonder if the people like Powell, Gay, Rodgers, Blake...are doing all these drugs, getting busted, and not getting anything practical.
The fact that you wonder is why you are DQd from having a valid discussion on the subject. There are numerous reasons, I'll give the easy one. RECOVERY FROM THE WORKOUTS. Coach go to Google Scholar type in Performance Enhancing Drugs. Read all those articles or a few of the books and I think your opinion will change. If not you will be educated in PEDs. Its alot of reading it should take you about 1 year. But just read some of the stuff. -
shekfact wrote:
coach d wrote:
A dirty little secret here: There is research showing that 20% improvement in squat strength translates into a 2% improvement in 40m sprint. It does transfer if you're a distance runner, but it doesn't transfer if you're a sprinter, and that's the opposite of what many coaches think. To what extent are American and Jamaican sprinters testing positive so they can add something that they believe works but actually doesn't do jack unless you're a beginner?
Evidence:
--Usain Bolt. In 2008-2009 he was more like 195 pounds. Everybody said that when he lifts more weights and grows into his body, he will get faster. He's now a more muscular 207. He's also slower.
--Kim Collins. The Lagat of sprinting. He does do weights now (didn't until the last few years), but still VERY skinny by modern standards.
--Jimmy Vicaut. He's about the same build are Armin Hary.
--Francis Obikwelu. Something like 6'5"/165, built like Johnny Gray. He finished with the silver in 2004 (9.85, as I recall), AHEAD or Maurice Greene.
--Marion Jones. Not skinny, but what's interesting is that her PRs were set in 1998, BEFORE she married CJ Hunter and BEFORE she trained with Trevor Graham. It is believed that she started doping in the buildup for the 2000 Olympics, and she kept both her PRs and her 1997 and 1999 world championships. It appears that she took steroids and GOT SLOWER.
I'm not saying to do zero weights, but the correlation is questionable, to say the least. There is very little scientific evidence of weight training doing much for sprinters. And the reason you don't see many skinny sprinters is because they believe they need to get big, not because it actually makes you faster.
You have obviously not seen Vicaut for a long time.
As for Hary, his strength was in his start. Forgive me if I'm wrong but weren't amphetamines widely available back in the 50s.
YEP!!! -
Wade van Niekirk is also under 10/20.
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hickdickdoc wrote:
Gemili is sub 10/20, I'd bet everything I own that he's clean.
I'll take that bet no problem -
Isn't he too short for 100 and 200m?It looks that under six feet or so you are disadvanteged.
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Funny thing about this...
DeGrasse I believe is clean being in the NCAA system I have hard time believing some one could be on a doping regime in college being in a house of other people, roommates and being tested by how many agencies? WADA? NCAA, Canada doping...
DeGrasse gives me more hope that BOLT is actually clean. Taking into account Bolt's times over 200m when he was 15-16 years old and world junior runs, his 6'5" height, I dunno... -
I think all elite sprinters use banned substances, not because it makes you faster or turns you into superman though. No drug can create fast twitch fibers. The athletes use PEDs in order to train harder, longer, and recover quicker. Especially in these big events where you potentially could be running 6-8 races in 7 days. The human body can only take so much pounding without chemical assistance.
When you need to turn in top performance after top performance without worrying about lactic acid, fatigue, soreness, thightness, etc you'll do anything. -
Clerk wrote:
There are more drugs available than steroids. Most sprinters have gotten busted for stimulants, which would have nothing to do with their physical size.
Here is a photo of Mike Rodgers two months before he got popped:
http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Yohan+Blake+Daniel+Bailey+Aviva+London+Grand+x5Ea8sKwpU8l.jpg
That distance runners or cyclists have taken testosterone and not gotten the jacked look also shows that drug use doesn't automatically show up in visible change in physique. A photo of Tom Danielson in one of his last races before getting popped for testosterone:
http://keyassets.timeincuk.net/inspirewp/live/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2015/08/WATSON_00004258-034-630x419.jpg (In green)
Or Floyd Landis the day he got caught with Testosterone:
http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/floyd-landis-of-the-usa-and-phonak-in-action-during-stage-17-of-the-picture-id71489668
And finally, this guy also used Testosterone... (notice "skeletor" in the URL...):
https://walshworld.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/skeletor.jpg
Mr. Clerk.
Once again…I have a better example... of the point that you are trying to make.
I have come across some new objective data on Ms. Darya Klishina…from Russia... on another thread at this forum which had a discussion…of the correct decision... to have Ms. Klishina jump at the Rio Olympics.
It turns out that Ms. Klishina is a Russian Doper-Cheater™ and had a previous urine doping test for testosterone that showed a testosterone/epitestosterone ratio of 8.5:1…which is way over the maximum limit of a 4:1 T/E ratio on the urine doping test. The average ratio in a normal person is around a 1:1 ratio.
http://www.rantsports.com/clubhouse/wp-content/slideshow/2013/07/darya-klishina-hot-pictures/medium/Darya-Klishina-FB23.jpg
1) Does Ms. Klishina look like she has high testosterone levels?
2) Does Ms. Klishina look like a man?
The correct answer to both questions is:
No.
Looks and testosterone levels can both be deceiving.
(Do you see how my example was better?) -
lol oh yes you do. I barely lift or train and run just as fast these are my times on zero supplements and I ran like 5 meets the whole season lol. Running anything under 10.5 is very hard and takes it out of you just off of my natural ability I know for sure theres no way Im cracking 10 flat or even under 10 without drugs do you realize what you need to come through 60 meters in and 10 meter splits to hit those times and how difficult that is? lol If I trained hard I might max my 60 meter around 6.65-6.75 and thats moving no way im going anything under 6.59 naturally no way lol impossible lol
http://www.all-athletics.com/node/79595
