I am a new xc coach in need of help

I find a mile time trial the first day perfect. Its not to long for new kids and most people understand what a mile time is. I let the veteran kids wear spikes. This is a good opportunity to show kids that you can run fast off strength and dont need speed speed speed to run fast or faster in the mile. Depending on numbers i break up the boys and girls or run them together. I then add a minute to these times to approx. threshold pace for tempos and cruise intervals which is the basis for the first month of training. By the time we get more specific we have had a race or two to get goal paces for race pace workouts.

Duty free wrote:

Yes. Generally after track this is how it should go:

-2 weeks off

-Easy running for 5-7 weeks building up mileage by 5-10% per week with hill sprints/strides a couple times per week

-Tempos 2x a week for another 5-7 weeks (tempos should start at 15 minutes each for the first week and then 20 and then max out at 25 for the last ones)

-replace one tempo with a hill workout (long hills ~2 minutes) until 6 weeks out from final race

-at that point start vo2 max reps like 5x1k, etc.

-hold peak mileage until 3-4 weeks out from final race

-2 week taper. 1st week is more subtle than the 2nd

This is the program my high school has used for decades. Every year we place in the top 2 at states. Anything 3rd place or worse is quite rare.

What state is this in?

I'm a little confused by this statement, "EVERY year we place in the top 2 at states. Anything 3rd place or worse is quite rare." I'd say by the very definition of "every", 3rd place or worse has actually never happened for your team. Very impressive.

this sort of thing is usually a small schools division in a non-running state - like vermont or arkansas or whatnot

my hs was in the big schools division in Southern California. ouch time.

here's the top 10 in the state, arkansas small schools. It's a joke - a decent running hs would go 1-10 against the entire state.

1. 12 Nathan Andres 17:55.80 Eureka Springs

2. 12 Hunter Chastain 17:59.60 Magazine

3. 10 Mark Guardarrama 18:09.40 Decatur

4. 10 Aaron Seward 18:12.00 West Side, GF

5. 11 Matt McClung 18:14.70 Eureka Springs

6. 10 Trevor Falco 18:20.70 Salem

7. 11 Josh Gonzales 18:28.10 Caddo Hills

8. 11 Wyatt Pavelsek 18:29.30 Eureka Springs

9. 12 Austin Cree 18:30.00 Trinity Christian

10. 10 Luis Ocampo 18:33.30 Decatur

http://www.athletic.net/CrossCountry/Results/Meet.aspx?Meet=93793#22623

citius5000 wrote:

I find a mile time trial the first day perfect. Its not to long for new kids and most people understand what a mile time is. I let the veteran kids wear spikes. This is a good opportunity to show kids that you can run fast off strength and dont need speed speed speed to run fast or faster in the mile. Depending on numbers i break up the boys and girls or run them together. I then add a minute to these times to approx. threshold pace for tempos and cruise intervals which is the basis for the first month of training. By the time we get more specific we have had a race or two to get goal paces for race pace workouts.

This is pretty similar to what we do, but we do 2 miles for TT and we do it twice: Once on the 3rd day of practice and once 2 weeks after the first. For cruise intervals and tempo runs, I slow the pace down 30-45 seconds per mile.

I'm going to have to disagree with those who say that time trials are unimportant or uninstructive. For my team, they serve a number of purposes.

1. They let the kids that have been training see the results of their work during the summer. An experienced kid who had a good track season should be in the neighborhood 30-40 seconds off of peak 2 mile track time. If I had a 10:00 boy, he might be at 10:30-10:40. This rule is not hard and fast. Some kids will run PRs in the time trial and some, despite training well all summer, will be slow.

2. They help in establishing goals and training paces, even for your newbies. The first couple of weeks of the season are the times when your new kids will PR the most. Having a couple of benchmark assessments thrown in there can really give the new kids something to feel good about as many of them will cut 2-3 minutes off between TT#1 and TT#2.

3. For the absolutely weakest (physically and mentally) kids, running the time trial will be an accomplishment unto itself. I won't let any kids go out on the roads for a run until they have proven that they can run for at least 20 minutes doing loops on campus. It is really hot when we practice. 100+ degree temps are not uncommon for us in August and even September. So, the kids have to prove that they won't die somewhere out on the street. I don't let kids who cannot run 20 minutes without stopping do the time trials. Surprisingly, holding the time trial out as a carrot gives the weakest kids something to shoot for during that first month.

My first month goes like this

Day 1: Easy run for the experienced kids, 20 minutes on the track for the rookies. Core and agility for all

Day 2: Easy run for the experienced kids, general athletic training for the rookies, core for all.

Day 3: Time trial #1: The veterans and the newbies who could run 20 min on day 1 get to do the TT. The others will do the WU/CD and do stuff like hand out water, help take times, etc...

Day 4-16: Easy running mostly. Lots of core/stability/general athletic conditioning for everybody. Experienced kids will do a couple of cruise interval sessions and a couple of short hill sprint sessions inserted into an easy run during this time, the rookies will do a couple of workouts where they will run 4-5 x 800 at the pace they achieved on the 2 mile TT. This may seem like a lot, like throwing them into the fire way to soon with intervals, but I've found that beginners acutally find those workouts quite easy because the pace they achieve in their first TT is a grand underachievement relative to their physical ability. Running 800s at that pace is not a problem for them. During this time, almost all of the kids will have built up to where they can run 20 min without stopping and therefore be elligible for TT#2.

Day 17: TT#2. By this time I have a pretty good idea of what kids abilities look like. TT#2 is run as an intersquad meet. My numbers have gotten big enough where I can have 4-5 boys teams and 2-3 girls teams run against eachother. I break the kids up so there are veterans and rookies on each team and try not to make the teams bigger than 6 runners, that way almost everyone will have a chance to score. I also try to make the teams as even as possible. I have a big ice chest full of gatorades at the end for kids who meet certain benchmarks: Fastest Boy, Fastest Girl, Team Champs for each gender, and biggest improvements from TT#1 to TT#2. The biggest improvement awards are usually the most gratifying to give because they always go to a rookie who may have run 18 min on TT#1 and dropped to 15 min on TT #2. My veterans know not to sandbag #1 in order to get the most improved award on #2.

Day 18- First Meet. More of the same as the first 2 weeks. We may include a couple of short I paced runs at the end of a short tempo session, depending on the makeup and experience of the varsity teams, but I have not done that recently.

I feel like the first month that I've developed over time is hugely important for our team. We build a tremendous amount of fitness during that time, but we always have lots of room left to grow as the season progresses. Having a series of benchmarks in there allows kids to get through to the first meet without losing focus. We are always the last team on campus to have our first competition, so the TTs serve us well for the purpose of letting the kids feel like they are not training for nothing.

rookery wrote:

...free of duty. wrote:

What state is this in?

I'm a little confused by this statement, "EVERY year we place in the top 2 at states. Anything 3rd place or worse is quite rare." I'd say by the very definition of "every", 3rd place or worse has actually never happened for your team. Very impressive.

this sort of thing is usually a small schools division in a non-running state - like vermont or arkansas or whatnot

my hs was in the big schools division in Southern California. ouch time.

I just went back and looked at the results for the past 15-20 years for what was available. 3 state titles and then more 2nd's, less 3rd's, and less 4th places. It's the biggest division in the state. It's PA. Who cares about anonymity? The reason my school does so well is because our graduating class is usually 600-700 so there's a large talent pool (like Kenya).

I hate to stick my head in the mouth of a lion, but I take exception to your last parenthetical..."like Kenya." Kenya actually has one of the smaller talent pools numerically speaking. Kenya is a country of about 30 million consisting of a little over 40 different tribes. Of all those tribes, over 85% of the medals have gone to one tribe...the kalenjin (with some notable maasai and Kikuyus). This is a population of 150,000 that has won a significant percentage of the distance medals and wmm over the past 30 years. Some will have you believe that this statistic in and of itself "proves" some type of genetic advantage. However, there are other tribes in Kenya, Uganda, and Tanzania without the same medal count.

Fact is they train harder and smarter than we do...they have a lifestyle that supports their training better than we do. They also have moved past the lydiard and Daniels model we use. I started with Daniels and he is a solid place to start, but the training approaches described in Anderson's running science and magness science of running are closer to what you will find internationally. Kenya is what gives small schools hope they can compete on relatively equal footing with big schools...if you develop healthy, highly motivated runners and train them better, you can win.

Duty free wrote:

rookery wrote:

this sort of thing is usually a small schools division in a non-running state - like vermont or arkansas or whatnot

my hs was in the big schools division in Southern California. ouch time.

I just went back and looked at the results for the past 15-20 years for what was available. 3 state titles and then more 2nd's, less 3rd's, and less 4th places. It's the biggest division in the state. It's PA. Who cares about anonymity? The reason my school does so well is because our graduating class is usually 600-700 so there's a large talent pool (like Kenya).

North Allegheny or Henderson? If you aren't one of those 2 schools then you are wrong. Council Rock North, Great Valley, Cumberland Valley, Mount Lebanon and Cardinal O'hara don't count, although solid programs they haven't won as much as you claim.

On another note, do you read Etrain's blog? it is about PA distance running and is better than the crap on milesplit.

therealtrain.blogspot.com

Could be North Penn, and they are freakin' huge. They've 3 over that time period (15 years). NA has 3 going back to 1997. WCH has 6 since 96. Coatesville and Cedar Cliff each have 2 over that period and then WC East, Mt. Leo & Council Rock have the rest.

yawnn wrote:

Could be North Penn, and they are freakin' huge. They've 3 over that time period (15 years). NA has 3 going back to 1997. WCH has 6 since 96. Coatesville and Cedar Cliff each have 2 over that period and then WC East, Mt. Leo & Council Rock have the rest.

Yea that's a program I forgot about, but the thing is North Penn doesn't make it out of the mess that is district 1 every year so it would be completely false to say that they get 1st or 2nd at states almost every year, It is probably Henderson because they seem to have the most top 5 finishes as of late, and they always make it to states.

Newbie Coach wrote:

Trollus Maximus wrote:

One way to assess current shape is with a time trial, either on or off the track.

I was thinking of doing so on a 2.5 mile trail by the school. How often should I do it?

You should run it several times every day.

TJR25 wrote:

Duty free wrote:

I just went back and looked at the results for the past 15-20 years for what was available. 3 state titles and then more 2nd's, less 3rd's, and less 4th places. It's the biggest division in the state. It's PA. Who cares about anonymity? The reason my school does so well is because our graduating class is usually 600-700 so there's a large talent pool (like Kenya).

North Allegheny or Henderson? If you aren't one of those 2 schools then you are wrong. Council Rock North, Great Valley, Cumberland Valley, Mount Lebanon and Cardinal O'hara don't count, although solid programs they haven't won as much as you claim.

On another note, do you read Etrain's blog? it is about PA distance running and is better than the crap on milesplit.

therealtrain.blogspot.com

Yes it's NA. Like I said earlier, I don't really care too much about anonymity. We always make it to states because we don't have to deal with that district 1 bullcrap. It's unbelievable out near philly.

Anyway I'll check out that blog thanks!

Well since that's the case then I misused that term. I heard something a while ago and it basically said that in iten, Kenya there are so many young guys who have great running talent that they can just hammer them in practice and only some will make it so they are really good from the training that killed some.

But anyway I guess instead of saying, "like Kenya" I could say, "like west Chester Henderson" because I've heard that's what they do. Doing more than 50-60 miles per week and only some survive. That's one of the reasons NA is amazing is because we only do 35-45 at the most and we still wreck everyones' days.

What are major differences between Anderson's and Magness's training approaches vs Lydiard and Daniels?