Fascinating article on EPO, red blood cells, and iron

Shoebacca wrote:

-"A calorie deficit therefore requires 500% more Thyroid Hormone (T3) to maintain [natural] EPO levels."

That would explain Dr. Brown's endocrinology as a PED. It sounds like if you medically enhance T3 you get some enhanced EPO production, and probably some recovery WHILE starving the body to get more Watts per Kilogram.

I know just enough human biochemistry/biology to be dangerous and really wrong though.

It sounds like if you medically enhance T3 you get some enhanced EPO production ...

Perhaps the biggest performance boost from T3, however, comes from improved use of lactate as a fuel via increase in the MCT proteins.

The effect of hematocrit on performance is still something that confuses me. Naturally high hematocrit correlates to negative performance because the blood is too viscous to deliver oxygen efficiently, yet taking EPO stimulates red blood cell production increasing hematocrit and raising performance. Is there something I'm missing? Does the problem arise when you have low iron and high hematocrit?

I also think the study should mention dehydration levels in conjunction with hematocrit to see if performance is affected more by low blood plasma or low hemoglobin.

ayy wrote:

Naturally high hematocrit correlates to negative performance because the blood is too viscous to deliver oxygen efficiently, yet taking EPO stimulates red blood cell production increasing hematocrit and raising performance. Is there something I'm missing?

Viscosity isn't an issue when your time to exhaustion triples.

I mayb be wrong, but my limited understanding is blood viscosity can be "fixed" with an IV drip in the best cases. In the worst cases, you wear a heart rate monitor that wakes you up so you don't die in your sleep.

runDirtyrun wrote:

ayy wrote:

Naturally high hematocrit correlates to negative performance because the blood is too viscous to deliver oxygen efficiently, yet taking EPO stimulates red blood cell production increasing hematocrit and raising performance. Is there something I'm missing?

Viscosity isn't an issue when your time to exhaustion triples.

I mayb be wrong, but my limited understanding is blood viscosity can be "fixed" with an IV drip in the best cases. In the worst cases, you wear a heart rate monitor that wakes you up so you don't die in your sleep.

I missed this line:

"...there is a strong negative correlation between hematocrit and fitness, due to a training-induced 'Autohemodilution.'"

hemodilution [he″mo-dĭ-loo´shun]

increase in the fluid content of blood, resulting in diminution of the concentration of formed elements.

So training naturally increases fluid content, meaning it solves the blood viscosity problem

ayy wrote:

Is there something I'm missing?

I don't think so. It's a classic case of diminishing returns.

If your plasma volume is low thanks to dehydration, you won't run well. If it's too high because you've overdone it, your performance will suffer for different reasons, especially if you wind up with cerebral edema and fall into a coma. There's a "sweet spot" (actually, a "sweet range").

If you were to plot hematocrit level vs. performance for any one subject, you'd probably see something resembling an asymmetrical bell curve, with the right tail dropping more precipitously than the left one rises.

Sweet Nell Fenwick wrote:

It sounds like if you medically enhance T3 you get some enhanced EPO production ...

Perhaps the biggest performance boost from T3, however, comes from improved use of lactate as a fuel via increase in the MCT proteins.

Talk BS much?

ayy wrote:

runDirtyrun wrote:

Viscosity isn't an issue when your time to exhaustion triples.

I mayb be wrong, but my limited understanding is blood viscosity can be "fixed" with an IV drip in the best cases. In the worst cases, you wear a heart rate monitor that wakes you up so you don't die in your sleep.

I missed this line:

"...there is a strong negative correlation between hematocrit and fitness, due to a training-induced 'Autohemodilution.'"

hemodilution [he″mo-dĭ-loo´shun]

increase in the fluid content of blood, resulting in diminution of the concentration of formed elements.

So training naturally increases fluid content, meaning it solves the blood viscosity problem

The performance enhancing effects of increased plasma volume are well known. You have more plasma, so you can sweat more, your body knows it can push hard for longer.

can someone give me a summary of that article? exactly what supplements should i shove down my throat?

I have absolutely no clue what anyone is talking about either!

William Misner, the author of the link, was the Director of Research & Development for a company called Hammer Nutrition. Hammer Nutrition is owned by Brian Frank.

"I just read the story about the lawsuit between Keat, Vine and Neben against Hammer Nutrition. They are alleging that Endurolytes were contaminated (and have tested the bottles of Endurolytes that Keat had used in two labs to prove they WERE in fact, contaminated with noradrostendione) and caused each athlete to test positive during in-competition testing."

http://www.racergirl.com/random-thoughts-allitems/68-Rants/358-brian-frank-attacking-the-canadians

Thanks for posting. This makes sense. When I was in shape and trained a lot I was not eating and eventually my thyroid levels dropped and I couldn't breathe even though I was in really good shape. When your thyroid levels drop you might sleep a lot. I would dream of laying down in the grass next to the road and sleeping during workouts. I could not figure out why I was sleeping so much and couldn't breathe anymore. If accurate, this could explain it. Had to take thyroid replacement for a while after and thought it was weird.

Just remember what Renato said, top African distance runners don't dope as EPO doesn't improve performance. Everyone else taking it are suckers right.

Talk BS much?

You had it coming:

cleansport4ever wrote:

Just remember what Renato said, top African distance runners don't dope as EPO doesn't improve performance. Everyone else taking it are suckers right.

You forgot to include Renato's insulting everyone who points out how foolish it makes him look to make that claim, then admit that he has nothing but a hunch and some very silly metaphors to support it.

Has he even chimed in since the NOP circus got underway?

So kidneys enable EPO production. And EPO production helps with blood-oxygen carrying capacity. Do there exist elites with only one kidney?

Craig Virgin had a defective kidney from birth, and although it caused him all sorts of problems, it wasn't actually taken out until he was through competing.

If you do lose a kidney or are born with only one and are a competitive runner, the other one compensates and steps up EPO production (along with filtration and so on), so it shouldn't matter.

KMB wrote:

Craig Virgin had a defective kidney from birth, and although it caused him all sorts of problems, it wasn't actually taken out until he was through competing.

If you do lose a kidney or are born with only one and are a competitive runner, the other one compensates and steps up EPO production (along with filtration and so on), so it shouldn't matter.

Intuitively, that's what I was thinking since that seems to be a common theme in the human body: an adaptive response to compensate for a loss in normal body function.

I wonder if high protein diets impair EPO production from the kidneys to an extent that would be considered 'significant'.

Retardo Cornhola wrote:

cleansport4ever wrote:

Just remember what Renato said, top African distance runners don't dope as EPO doesn't improve performance. Everyone else taking it are suckers right.

You forgot to include Renato's insulting everyone who points out how foolish it makes him look to make that claim, then admit that he has nothing but a hunch and some very silly metaphors to support it.

Has he even chimed in since the NOP circus got underway?

He started a long thread to discuss EPO. But none of lrc's self-declared ex phys scientists could answer his direct and fairly trivial questions.