Last 800m: Coe 1:48.5 / Centrowitz 1:48.7

from vid :

Abdi's 1st side-on is at

1'51.9

now, for clueless inepts here, his track position is obvious !

he is

~ 0.75m

beyond lane 2 start for 400 which is 7.04m above start for lane 2

he therefore had run

~ 800 + 7.04 + 0.75 =

807.79m

( extra

7.79m )

in 1'51.9

now,

we are only concerned about back-extrapolating his time to 800m mark

he wouda been travelling something like 64 or 65s pace for 400 thru to 700 out

therefore his "extra" 7.79m covered in

~ 400/64 = 6.25m/s -> 1.24s

or

~ 400/65 = 6.154m/s -> 1.27s

it's derisory difference

it's very, very likely :

Abdi past 700 in ~

1'51.9 - 1.26 =

1'50.64

his last 800 was therefore :

1'46.1

this however accounts nothing for wide bend running of that last 800

Centro ran the last 600 from the front. Neither Coe nor Bile had to anything like this. Centro's finish is more impressive because he led the last 600, period.

certainly's centro's was more impressive than coe who ran ~ 1'48-mid/high last 800 & drafted upto ~ last 140m

but Abdi's last 800 was ~ 1'46.0 !!!

even with drafting, he did run some extra wide on bends & drafting for near 2 laps won't account for nearly 3s

Last 800m of 1500:

Coe - 1:48.5

Centrowitz - 1:48.7

Open 800m:

Coe: 1:41

Centrowitz: 1:49

ItIsOver! wrote:

Centro ran the last 600 from the front. Neither Coe nor Bile had to anything like this. Centro's finish is more impressive because he led the last 600, period.

This ^^^^^

Deano's world wide fellating of Coe on every forum and athletics site is amusing though.

more like 3'10.7

therefore 24.8+

nonsense

he was in lane 2 at end of bend

much more like 2.5m for last bend

nonsense

more like

~ 24.4+

not in same ballpark as a

24.4+ finish in a 3'35

why the hell didn't you mention coe ran 3'38+ in moscow ???

no

you need to put it into context of a 3'35.5 v 3'38.4

with both races no stretch until latter parts

nonsense

last effective 200 of 24.4+ v 24.8+ in a 3'35.5 v 3'38.4 are not in same universe !!!

pathetic clocking

it's alleged Kip clocked a last 200 of 24.8 !!! in his 1'42.77 in monaco '97

that was just 3/7 after his incredible zurich 1'41.2 when he admitted after monaco he still hadn't recovered from zurich

that is a real FAST clocking for a last 200 in a fast race !!!

ItIsOver! wrote:

Centro ran the last 600 from the front. Neither Coe nor Bile had to anything like this. Centro's finish is more impressive because he led the last 600, period.

I really can't believe anyone would suggest Centro's performance at the US trials compares to Coe'r Olympic victory.

For starters, Centro ran a heat in 3:44.39 and then a final 2 days later in 3:37.25. Coe's run was in the Olympics and constituted his 6th race in a week. Who do you think would have been fresher?

Coe's sole aim in his race was to win. He didn't care what the time was. He just followed the pace and kicked with 100m to go, knowing he could outkick anyone in the field and maintain the fast pace longer than anyone. The fact he ran the last 200 in 25.0 (running wide on last bend) and last 100m in 12.2, shows that he had loads left, and if necessary, could have run that last 800m 2 secs faster. Centro's were 25.8/12.8.

In Moscow Coe received no drafting up to 900m. For the first 4 bends he ran wide of Straub in the outside of lane 1, even in the straights, sometimes going into lane 2. He ran c. 2.5m extra for each of those first 4 bends. That's 10m extra. When Straub went at about 840m, Coe was wide of him. Even as they enter the bend at 900m, Straub is 3m ahead, so there would have been minimal drafting. Down the home straight to the bell Coe is still wide of Straub and gets little if any drafting. He tucks in behind Straub briefly on the bend after the bell for about 30m, before drifting out wide of the lane again. The head on shot down the final back straight (2:43 min in on video) still shows Coe is wide of Straub. No drafting there. Around the last bend he stays wide of Straub, forcing Ovett to run wider still if he wants to pass him. As Coe enters the home straight he is almost on the line with lane 2.

Coe has no more than 100m of partial drafting the entire race, no more than 50m on the last lap. He gets 950m of no drafting up to the bell. That's 950/400 x 0.7 = 1.66 secs. He lost 1.66 secs compared to if he'd had drafting.

On the last lap he run 1.5m wide on the penultimate (6th bend) and at least 2m wide on the last bend.

That's a total of 13.5 m extra distance run in a 3:38.4. That works out at 3:36.4 for 1500m. Take off the 1.66 for 950m without drafting and that brings it down to 3:34.8.

In the last 800m (1:48.5) he runs 6m extra. That's worth 1:47.6, in a race of 3:34.8. Centro ran 1:48.7 in a 3:37.2. We can't get his race on Youtube in the UK anymore, but I seem to recall he hit the front at 600m, so got no drafting for 200m. That's = to 0.35. So a 1:48.3 in a 3:36.9.

Coe ran 3.5m extra on last lap of 52.2, so its worth 51.7. Centro ran 52.0 on rails.

Coe's last 300 was 38.6 (38.3 after running 2m wide on last bend), Centro's 38.9.

Coe's last 200m was 25.0, but he ran an extra 2m wide to pass Straub, equivalent to 24.7, more than 1.0 secs faster than Centro, who ran 25.8 on the rails.

Taking into consideration just the extra distance Coe ran in the last 800m, his closing splits for the last 800m, 700m, 500m, 400m, 300m, 200m and 100m were all faster than Centro's corresponding splits.

The only split that Centro ran faster was the last 600m.

With all things considered (lack of drafting and extra distance run), Coe ran closing splits of 1:47.6, 51.7, 24.7 in a 3:34.8 race.

Centro closed with 1:48.3, 52.0, 25.8 in a 3:36.9 race.

On top of that, Coe's last 100 and 200 were much faster, showing unused energy, meaning he could have covered that last 800m significantly faster.

As impressive as Centro's performance was, statistically it is inferior to Coe's Moscow run.

Not all 1:48 last 800s are equal. It could be 27 for every 200 or it could be a gradual wind-up or a sudden acceleration at some point. Many runners who could have challenged for the win if the big move is made with 250 left might be in trouble if the charge starts with 300 left, and the final 800 could be 1:48 in either case. Of course, wind direction can also affect how the splits look, therefore changing the whole nature of who gets dropped when.

Position is most important of all. I've seen so many runners who have closed 3:45 1,500s with a 52 lap and they all think they've got a great chance in some championship when they know that the other finalists have had similar races. But when practically the whole field can do the same thing, at least half of them are going to find themselves behind or boxed and their 52 close will start (and therefore finish) behind a lot of other 52s or it won't materialize at all because of traffic problems.

So comparing results from different races (especially from different eras and in Olympic vs. USA settings) isn't always reliable. As the cliche goes, they have to run the race before the medals get handed out.

And then they have to pass the drug tests - Ha!

Bile ran 11m extra in Barcelona, 9m extra in last 800m and 2m extra in last 200m.

He had 900m of drafting in the first 1100m.

He had 200m of drafting on 3rd lap. So 200m without drafting.

With extra distance and drafting taken into consideration his run was worth 3:33.6 with a last 800 (real last 800 -1:51.1) of 1:49.5 (1:51.1 - 1.24 for extra distance, - 0.35 for no drafting) and last 200m of 24.6.

He may have come off the bend touching the line with lane 2, but for half the curve he was in middle of lane 1 getting partial drafting off Coe. He was past the 200m line at 3:10.7 and his finishing time was 3:35.57. His last 200 was nearer to 24.9 than 24.8.

Coe ran 13.5m further in Moscow (worth 1.95sec), 6m extra in last 800m (worth 1:47.7) and 2m extra on last bend/200m.

He had only 150m of drafting up to 1100m. That's 950m without drafting = 1.66sec.

With extra distance and drafting taken into consideration Coe's run was worth 3:34.8 with a last 800 (actual last 800 - 1:48.5) of 1:47.3 (- 0.8 for extra distance, - 0.44 (250m) for no drafting on lap 3), and last 200m of 24.7

Coe ran just as wide as Bile on the last bend.

So Coe ran a 3:34.8 with a 1:47.3 and 24.7 finish.

Bile ran 3:33.6 with a 1:49.5 and 24.6 finish.

They are clearly in the same universe based on those splits alone.

It was Coe's 6th race in a week. It was a 1 off race for Bile, no different to a circuit race in that respect. You keep going on about taking time off for athletes being tired. Who do you think would have been more tired going into their respective races?

An old Coe of 32 when way past his best managed to hold Bile to a metre, despite being impaired by Bile at the top of the home straight. If you think that a Coe of 24, could not have run better than he did at 32, then you know very little.

Have you watched the Moscow race?

Coe was well known for running wide of his lane and out on shoulder of leader to make anyone who tries to go past run wider still. He even ran like that in most of his world record attempts. He covered a lot more ground than Centro over course of race and he had no drafting for first 2 laps and little over last 2 as he was either wide of the German or 3m behind.

And how can you say Coe was fresher than Centrowitz? Are you serious?

Centrowitz wouldn't have had a chance in that race in Moscow. He wouldn't have got to the front after the German went with 700 to go.

ventolin^3 wrote:

straub had 1'46.0 / 3'33.6pbs & almost ran coe into the ground by last backstretch & still only finished 0.4s shy at end

what on earth woud centro with 1'44.6/3'31.0pbs have done to him ???

Lagat's pb for 800 in 1:46.0, EL G's ia 1:47. Is that all they were capable of?

How many elite circuit races did you watch Straub running through 400 in 50/51 from your lazyboy on satellite?

Straub's 1500 pb of 3:33.6 was run off first lap of 52.6. He went through 800 in 1:52.0 & 1200 in 2:51.0. He was solo from 700m. That's worth 3:31. The same as Centro's pb.

Straub was almost certainly using PEDS in Moscow. The list of athletes from his training camp, including Olaf Beyer, are listed as being on state run programmes according to Stasi files. The idea that Straub alone would not have been put on such a programme is ludicrous.

Anyone who follows the sport can see that Straub did nothing before or after Moscow that was remotely close to the form and ability he showed in the 1500 final. For a start he beat Ovett who was clearly in 1:43 800 form and a darn sight better 2 lap runner than Centro.

Centro wouldn't have got a medal in Moscow.

ventolin^3 wrote:

he'd hardly run any fast 1500/miles by then, albeit 2 of them were wrs

Peer Mediator wrote:

Isn't this called an oxymoron?

Did you really say he'd hardly run any fast times apart from 2 world records? LOL.

LOL

POD

And great work there, Deano. You make it worthwhile reading through the ventocrap.

Coe went through 800m in 2:05

The comparison should therefore be over the last 700m

To compare the 2 is ridiculous Coe was running faster 30 years ago and is in a completely different class over 800m. Coe has run faster at both and 1500m plus Coe would have beaten his own times own if he was competing today.

Coe also ran to win rather than hoping others would fold and scraping a medal

..................and one more thing 1:49 !

Lagat was caught using EPO. Period. He was let off because of politics - poor third world boy etc., he was NEVER declared clean by officials. El G was likely another doper. That's how guys with such slow 800 PRs could run a 1500 as fast as they did.

Can't say Centro wouldn't have medaled. Centro LED the last 600, he wasn't chasing a drug fueled tool of the commies, and he didn't have Steve Ovett on his tail to provide even more motivation.

Otherwise, decent post Deano. lol You're too obvious.

Don't leave, said88! You're one of the few good posters on here.

Centro's race was nuts and is maybe as technically impressive as Coe's, but I have to think the majority of people don't really think Centro could beat Coe when both were in their primes. Maybe Centro will prove me wrong, but he isn't at the Coe level yet. But Coe was one of the all-time greats, so there's no shame in that.

El Guerrouj would smoke both of them, obviously.

GoldenMiles wrote:

Don't leave, said88! You're one of the few good posters on here.

Centro's race was nuts and is maybe as technically impressive as Coe's, but I have to think the majority of people don't really think Centro could beat Coe when both were in their primes. Maybe Centro will prove me wrong, but he isn't at the Coe level yet. But Coe was one of the all-time greats, so there's no shame in that.

El Guerrouj would smoke both of them, obviously.

Only because he was a biologically enhanced robot. Without the EPO and whatever else he was clearly on, I don't see him as any better than a 3:30 runner. Same with the other dope heads in the late 90's.

The idea that Centro would be at Coe's level is ridiculous! He just won Nationals and has a couple of medals.

Don't get me wrong, he is incredible good, and I have been one of the first to say he could go sub 3:30.

But so far, the comparison is not worth it.

Get back to me when he won Zurich or something like that.

Never forget that Kiplagat had a couple of sub par races in championships but is the best guy year round.

kjgkuyg wrote:

ventolin^3 wrote:

i'd like to add

You'd like to add what? Just feck off.

Ah, you must be a mick or a limey.

Centro could never be compared to Coe at 800. At 1500, Centro will no doubt run faster than Coe ever did. But that doesn't mean he's a better runner.

At 1500 Coe was fantastic, but he did luck out in '84 with Cram not being at 100% - which everyone but Deano knows was the case, never mind Ovett being a shell of himself. Cram himself is too much of a gentleman to ever say things would have been different, but given the way Cram had been progressing up to that point and afterward - and the way he usually ran races, it's safe to say that had Cram been at his best, he would likely have run the last lap in L.A. differently. Would he have won? Maybe. He most certainly would have made Coe have to work hard all the way down the backstretch, maybe even from the bell. Again, Ovett was plain out of it. Coe was a little bit lucky there again as well. But Coe did win, so he has two golds.

That said, Centro led from 600m out. Coe could chase someone from that far out, but would never, ever, do that in a championship type race. He wasn't that ballsy. If he had been ballsy in Moscow, like Rudisha in London, he would likely have won the 800 going away. Instead he was beaten by Ovett who ran his own race - meaning he ran the race in the way that gave him the best chance, which is what Coe should have done. Coe and Ovett were both one-trick ponies in championship events. Ovett would try and rip the last 200 - 250, Coe would try and hang on and blast the final 80 - 120 meters.

All this verbiage means is I believe Coe was a more talented runner than Centro, but he wasn't as ballsy.

Cram likely had more natural ability at 1500/mile than Coe, but he kept blowing out his calf. He should have listened to Jim Spivey who told him to see a podiatrist and get an orthotic for his 'revolving' foot that ended up making his calf give out constantly throughout his career. Coe at his best would never have been able to run with Cram at his best at 1500 or the mile. Cram's faster finishes in fast races is part of the proof. Which Deano and maybe psycho vento will now scream about.

Really! I think you'll find that while Ovett's preferred tactic was to kick hard and go past with 200m to go, that was not, factually, how he ran in all Championship or major races. He left it until 100m out in the Moscow 800 and the World Cup 1500m in 81. He also left it until the last 100m in the Moscow 1500.

Likewise for Coe. In the European 800 in 78 he ran from the front all the way. In the 82 Europeans he also led from 400 out. In neither race was he 'hanging on' to someone else in front.

In the LA 1500 he went to the front with 200m to go, and in the World Cup 1500 in 89 he went to the front with 300m to go.

Neither were 'one trick ponies' in actual reality. I would add that 2 of the other athletes you mention in your post are far better examples of one trick ponies; Cram and Rudisha. In fact that phrase was used in relation to Rudisha last week by Tim Hutchings, when commentating on his defeat in Lausanne. Rudisha leads from 400 to go most of the time, and unless he's near to 100% top form, makes himself a rabbit and target for the likes of Aman and Amos behind him. He needs to develop an alternative strategy when he knows he's not in peak form. It's a bit like poker.

I don't agree with this, but you're entitled to your opinion.

It is very difficult to compare closing splits in fast times unless the prior pace and competition similar.

A lot of Coe's fast races in 1500 and a mile were off pretty dire pacing or fast early laps. He was invariably way ahead of the competition anyway, so there was not always the need to run all out over the entire last lap. Oslo Mile 79, Zurich 1500 79, Stockholm 1500 81, both Mile WRS in 81 are all cases in point.

Cram's best/fastest 2 races (1500 & Mile WRs in 85) were in more sensibly paced races, where he had fairly close competition pushing him from behind over the last lap. He had Aouita chasing him in one and Coe with him until last 200 in the other. They were both first and foremost 'races'.

Cram's best way to win was always to go from 300 or 400 out as hard as he could and then hang on, because his turn of speed was not as good as others. Not surprisingly his last 400m were more impressive, but that was not the case in the closing 100m.

In Cram's 3:46.3 WR Mile he went through laps of 57.3, 57.2, 58.6 and 53.2.

So his last 800m was 1:51.2. His last 200m was 25.5 and last 100m 12.8.

Coe's Olympic win in 84, 3:32.5, while not quite as fast in equivalent terms as Cram's mile, was his 7th race in 9 days and not a 1 off circuit race. He also ran about 8.5m extra and had no drafting for 450m. With that and the fact it was at the end of an intense series of Championship races, was easily worth a 3:30 1500m

His laps were 58.9, 58.0, 56.4, 39.2 (53.2)

His last 800 was faster than Cram's at 1:49.8, and his last 200m was 25.7 and last 100m in 12.6. His last 100m was the fastest of the race, showing he had unused energy. There is no reason to believe, had Abascal gone harder at the bell, that Coe could not have run that last lap in 52.5.

Similarly Coe finished with 53.0, 39.0, 25.7, 12.5 in a 3:32,3 in Zurich off very uneven pacing ~ 55.0, 60.9, 57.4. He had a last 800 there of 1:51.

Coe's fastest race, 3:29.7 was a very different race than either of Cram's fastest 2, as the first lap was way to fast at 54.0, and he was already way ahead at the bell, in a time 1.5 secs faster than Cram's corresponding split. It is pointless comparing the finishing splits in these 2 races as the similar final times were arrived at in a completely different way.

I have no doubt that a peak Coe was able to live with a peak Cram on the last lap in any 1500, whatever the pace. And more often than not he'd have still gone past in the last 100m. He wasn't the WR holder for 1000m for 19 years for nothing. His speed endurance was as good as anyone's.