Official Day 4 2015 USA Outdoor Live Discussion Thread

Doubt anyone's still on this thread, but I always wonder about those for whom sitting and kicking is not a smart race plan. Are they really just gutless, as commentators always seem to suggest? Or do the coaches tell them--just stay with the pack, and you'll be fine? It just seems like in every USATF championship race there are 5 or 6 runners for whom sit and kick means "still finish last and run a time that high schoolers could beat" when if they just pushed the pace from the front they still might be beat but they'd have at least given it a try. I'm not talking pulling a Duane Solomon--just leading at a pace that Tim Hutchins doesn't call "desperately pedestrian."

How come Rowbury never congratulates Simpson at the end of a race?

that's funny of Hutchings but running at any speed is just as pedestrian as walking. Even sprinting is pedestrian.

Not a big fan of the tactic for everyone either, but to be fair to the finalists, they did make it there probably using similar tactics. Now in the first rounds I'm always surprised someone doesn't go all Richie Boulet (can't let Magdalena get all the press this weekend) and try to take a flyer.

AT wrote:

Please tell me someone else saw Grunewald just go flying with 600 to go

And chuckled a few times.

run liner wrote:

How come Rowbury never congratulates Simpson at the end of a race?

Because of the nose ring malfunction ?

Are you kidding? Today she looked like she wanted to strangle something....

run liner wrote:

How come Rowbury never congratulates Simpson at the end of a race?

thinking sit and kick wrote:

Doubt anyone's still on this thread, but I always wonder about those for whom sitting and kicking is not a smart race plan. Are they really just gutless, as commentators always seem to suggest? Or do the coaches tell them--just stay with the pack, and you'll be fine? It just seems like in every USATF championship race there are 5 or 6 runners for whom sit and kick means "still finish last and run a time that high schoolers could beat" when if they just pushed the pace from the front they still might be beat but they'd have at least given it a try. I'm not talking pulling a Duane Solomon--just leading at a pace that Tim Hutchins doesn't call "desperately pedestrian."

It's that the odds of making the team are better if you sit and kick. It's really that simple. Take someone like Kyle Merber. He's a 3:34 guy and doesn't have quite the same kind of finish that guys like Centro, Manzano, Andrews or Wheating do. If he keeps it honest and takes the race out at 3:35 pace he might burn a few guys off, but certainly not even close to the entire field. They all have similar or better PRs. There's a better chance that he'd catch lightning in a bottle and have a crazy kick than there is of rabbiting the entire field and holding on to win. Front running is really hard. It's not a matter of guts, it's a matter of physics.

thinking sit and kick wrote:

It just seems like in every USATF championship race there are 5 or 6 runners for whom sit and kick means "still finish last and run a time that high schoolers could beat" when if they just pushed the pace from the front they still might be beat but they'd have at least given it a try.

I agree. If these guys are thinking that sit-and-kick increases their odds of anything, they are completely delusional.

Stratego wrote:

There's a better chance that he'd catch lightning in a bottle and have a crazy kick than there is of rabbiting the entire field and holding on to win. Front running is really hard. It's not a matter of guts, it's a matter of physics.

Physics is running the fastest time, from the start to the finish.

Total nonsense wrote:

Stratego wrote:

There's a better chance that he'd catch lightning in a bottle and have a crazy kick than there is of rabbiting the entire field and holding on to win. Front running is really hard. It's not a matter of guts, it's a matter of physics.

Physics is running the fastest time, from the start to the finish.

And genetics is realizing that you are a basic low-level simian incapable of higher reasoning, and have certainly never competed a championship mile/1500.

The women's 1500 was a perfect example of what Stratego was talking about, where two (and another 0.01 behind) women now have a chance on making the team when based on their PRs were not even top ten. They caught the proverbial "lightning in a bottle". reparing the rewards of a finishing scrum.

coach d wrote:

Moser actually finished 6th, so NOP would have had to get 2 people DQed. No protest was filed.

You have to remember that 3, 4, 5 runners all don't have the standard, so every place counts.

And there was a protest. Not sure it came from Moser though.

"The celebration had to wait, though, because the race was protested."

jealous wrote:

it must be awesome to live a life where you actively root for others to lose so that you can feel good about yourself. so fulfilling.

Exactly. LOL.

Everyone was beat from the heat. Even the guys who didn't race the 10k.

It was so hot in the previous days the only way distance runners could not have been depleted some would have been to have stayed in a cool air conditioned hotel as much as they could have, stayed hydrated, and trained indoors on a tread mill.

The crowd was very much quieter than they would have been, everyone was so freaking hot there wasn't much talking going on between races. It was unusual. A lot of people were dragging tail getting into the meet for 5k's, Sunday AM people were still tired from 3 days of heat, and the lower temp was not a ton of relief. Probably a lot of runners are not used to racing that early in the day anymore. Because of all this both races seemed kind of weird, not normal.

Good test of adversity and heat conditions for Beijing...

It is the NOP way: win at all costs, be a poor sport if you lose.

run liner wrote:

How come Rowbury never congratulates Simpson at the end of a race?

The fact that every time a race doesn't go out at "A" standard pace people complain cause people don't have guts is ridiculous. First of all, 80% of every field except maybe the 800 doesn't have the A standard. Ben True doesn't even have the 5000 standard.

Especially in guys races where the fields are much deeper than women's (sorry but true), no one is going to hammer from the front and have it work real well for them. The only time you're going to see it is in the Olympic trials when it's the last possible opportunity to get the standard (ritz in 2012 with a lot of help from rupp).

"Yeah but what you're missing is that not everyone can kick with Ben true and rupp and Ryan hill etc" yeah but the guys who can't kick with them, also can't run as fast of a time trial as them. So why the hell would a guy like Jenkins or a guy of that caliber try and drop the entire field? How is he going to drop them? By running 63s? Unless you run 12.5 consecutive you're not going to drop enough of them and even if you do, that's still only 13:07. 11 seconds faster than Jenkins has ever run and still slower than rupp, true, lagat, mead (who was entered and didn't run) etc.

The BEST WAY TO MAKE A TEAM IF YOURE NOT A COMPLETE FAVORITE IS TO MAKE IT A KICKERS RACE AND ROLL THE DICE. The perfect example is the women's 1500 as someone said before. Leading is stupid. Pennell ran awesome and got passed by ten people. Ryan vail wasn't heard from all race and ended up fifth. Pretty damn good. He missed the team by a spot to his African teammate.

Stop whining about people not having balls. Because if you went out and lead the race for 4 out of the 5000 meters, you'd get smoked too.

vessey is still bae wrote:

she fell:( seems like she got mixed up with ajee wilson who actually lost her shoe during the contact. So bummed.

So bummed as well. Watching from straight on slo-m looked like Ludlow & Vessey were stride for stride then Wilson cut off Ludlow who stumbled to her left in front of Vessey, struggled then stepped on Wilson's shoe. Vessey tried to slow her momentum possibly connecting with Ludlow's back foot but got thrown out the side. It was an ugly moment and sad for Ludlow and Vessey. They were ready for World's. I'm not convinced we have the best team for Beijing but that's racing, folks!

Actually, the Women's 1500, among others, prove why runners with faster PRs shouldn't allow for a sit and kick. Two runners with inferior PRs got in because the other runners were too stupid, and too gutless to just go and run a PR to guarantee their spots on the team. It is simple physics, run a 4:03 if yo have a 4:03 PR and no 4:04 runner or slower will beat you. Try to outsprint a runner in a pack and who knows what will happen...too many variables.

Jibberjabber wrote:

Total nonsense wrote:

Physics is running the fastest time, from the start to the finish.

And genetics is realizing that you are a basic low-level simian incapable of higher reasoning, and have certainly never competed a championship mile/1500.

The women's 1500 was a perfect example of what Stratego was talking about, where two (and another 0.01 behind) women now have a chance on making the team when based on their PRs were not even top ten. They caught the proverbial "lightning in a bottle". reparing the rewards of a finishing scrum.

A Duck wrote:

The crowd was very much quieter than they would have been, everyone was so freaking hot there wasn't much talking going on between races. It was unusual.

You obviously weren't sitting by us!