um... those numbers include all thyroid diseases... Hypothyroid is just one of many.
And as your source notes many people with thyroid problems go about life without even realizing it.
um... those numbers include all thyroid diseases... Hypothyroid is just one of many.
And as your source notes many people with thyroid problems go about life without even realizing it.
So if you want to run a microdosing program and not get in trouble, all you have to do is claim that you're only running these tests on people to preempt someone from sabotaging your athletes. Clever.
Can you Read?! wrote:
TJR25 wrote:He quoted studies/statistics in the response from USATF that showed that 21% males running mid distance, long distance and the marathon in 2012 had thyroid issues from the (US), females were 23% and that 20 something percent of all of Great Britain's athletes had thyroid issues. So his rates are actually lower.
Those statistics were for asthma, not for thyroid. He (deliberately?) didn't include any statistics on hypothyroidism in his response.
I'm reading those statistics completely differently to you guys. It seems like you are interpreting it as 20-some percent of these athletes ACTUALLY HAVE asthma or thyroid issues, or whatever.
My interpretation is that that's how many are CLAIMING TO HAVE, or have prescriptions for, these issues. Not the same thing. If abusing thyroid and asthma prescriptions by athletes is a genuine thing, then you would expect the rates to be higher than the general population.
Very interesting response. I want to believe that the NOP is clean, but I also don't want them to get away with cheating if that's what they're doing
I still have a tough time with Salazar's claim that all these people are just making up lies because they're jealous. Really? 20 people put their professional credibility on the line just because they resent you? Seems a little far-fetched to me.
He got extremely personal with his attacks against Magness and the Gouchers. I guess if his main defense is that these people are out to get him, then a good strategy would be to paint them in as bad a light as possible.
More than anything, my takeaway from reading this is that the stakes have been raised for all parties involved. If it turns out Alberto did cheat, then this response puts him on the same level as Lance Armstrong. Someone who cheated, lied repeatedly, and personally attacked his critics in an effort to silence them.
Really? Wow? wrote:
Depends who you believe...I'm sure most coaches hollow out a book to send non-illegal meds to their athletes.
I agree, but why was he emailing people at the time telling them what he was sending and why? Was it because he knew he would need a paper trail years down the road? I guess it's possible, but after reading the emails, to me it sure looks like he was trying to get some legal medicine past customs.
TJR25 wrote:
KMB wrote:According to the Cleveland Clinic, the prevalence of true hypothyroidism (Alberto incorrectly uses the term "incidence" -- actually he writes this as "incident") in the general U.S. population is less than 1 in 300.
Going only by the results of blood testing in the absence of symptoms ("biochemical hypothyroidism"), this rises to about 1 in 22.
http://www.clevelandclinicmeded.com/medicalpubs/diseasemanagement/endocrinology/hypothyroidism-and-hyperthyroidism/So when Alberto notes that "only" 5 out of 55 (or 1 in every 11) NOP athletes have been diagnosed with the condition since joining the program -- seeming to imply strongly that others brought a diagnosis into the game with them -- I'm not sure what the "only" is supposed to mean.
0.3% of the population is clinically hypothyroid.
4.6% of the population is hypothyroid by serum analysis.
At least 9.1% of NOP runners carry the diagnosis of hypothyroidism.
This should come as no surprise given how the NOP's own endocrinologist, the aforementioned Dr. Jeffrey Brown, deviates from his peers when it comes to establishing a diagnosis of hypthyroidism.
https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/is-thyroid-replacement-a-performance-enhancing-drug/He quoted studies/statistics in the response from USATF that showed that 21% males running mid distance, long distance and the marathon in 2012 had thyroid issues from the (US), females were 23% and that 20 something percent of all of Great Britain's athletes had thyroid issues. So his rates are actually lower.
Those 20+% figures are for ASTHMA, not thyroid
You completely fell for his weasely misdirection.
And putting that kind of obfuscation in there doesn't reflect well on him.
Let's be honest. Alberto knocked this one out of the park. Kara, Adam, and Magness (Stiner, too?) just had their credibility kneecapped with Alberto's level of documentation.On the matter of the number of people reporting him to the USADA, I think the most likely scenario is that Alberto can be a raging a-hole and feels no need to explain himself to anyone. A lot of great competitors have that capacity to be bare knuckles, kick-dirt-in-your-face dogfighters. Adam and Alberto are likely different sides of the same coin, which is why I loved watching them compete. As a coach, Alberto may like to push the rules as far as they will go and he hasn't answered the Fleshman allegation. So Magness et al. are trying to hit him on this point where he is vulnerable.
henry4knicks wrote:
I read Alberto's entire response along with the attached articles and emails and believe that serves as a very compelling argument to refute the allegations against Galen, him, and the Oregon Project.
One of the hardest things I was having trouble with was believing in the Oregon Project's innocence when there were more and more former athletes/trainers, etc. speaking against the Oregon Project. After reading Alberto's response my concerns are diminished. Very few people have brought forth evidence that is concrete, and if they have brought forth "so called" concrete evidence it has been refuted in Alberto's response.
You are correct in a sense when saying that the interviews and blog posts from Magness and Goucher do not provide a "smoking gun" answer, but it seems you fail to acknowledge their place in this situation. They are somewhat circumstantial but they do provide evidence to Alberto's argument. I thought Goucher's emails were very illuminating in fact. Same with Magness' interview, it is odd that Magness spoke so highly of the program and highlighted the very essence of the Oregon Project numerous times in the interview and then now is in a position that is extremely contrary to that of the interview provided.
Overall, I am keeping an open mind in this investigation and have been following it very closely, but Alberto's response is very convincing. I still have concerns about the number of athletes and such that have spoke against the Oregon Project but these are somewhat dispelled in my mind as they often provide little to no evidence that is anything but circumstantial.
The classy thing for the accusers would be to read Alberto's open letter and then retract their accusations. Memories change over time and hard feelings can make you believe something which isn't true. But now that the larger story is out there complete with emails, blog entries, documents, and magazine articles ... It is obvious that the accusations are groundless. It's time to make up and move on.
Cavman wrote:
I agree with the other criticisms of Rojo. Salazar's statement provides much more evidence and detail than the accusations, and to state that this doesn't change much is perplexing. He doesn't just state his side of the story in a he-said/he-said type of way without providing any evidence, but with the sabotage test, for example, he provides contemporaneous emails and details that do not appear to match up with a micro-doping effort.
Is there still room for him to by lying? Sure. But not much. To say the microdoping theory is still an open question, you have to come up with some plausible explanation for those emails from 2009, and you need some kind of explanation that the testing protocol used (and supported by evidence) is better explained by a micro-doping theory than a sabotage test.
Rojo, I know you aren't a lawyer, but contemporaneous documents like these provide much stronger evidence than what has been provided by the accusers so far.
Let me briefly explain why I said I need to re-read it and analyze it, but before I do let me state, I've been on the phone with sources all afternoon and haven't read most of this thread.
There is a lot of selective denials and some of the evidence is totally irrelevant.
Let's take the Cytomel for example.
Alberto provides a letter from Dr. Brown saying he told Kara Goucher to take Cytomel in August of 2011.
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0248/8471/files/Exhibit_21.pdf?10179272499514451932The problem for Alberto is that has nothing to do with the accusation made by the Gouchers in ProPublica was that Salazzar told her to get on Cytomel without a prescription early 2011 in March or April - before she ran 2:24 in the Boston marathon - just 5+ months after giving birth.
Epstein wrote:
Five months after she gave birth to Colt in 2010 (September 25), Salazar was unhappy about Goucher's weight, she says. Salazar had previously recommended that several female runners he deemed overweight take over-the-counter supplements marketed as fat-burners. But for Goucher, he had something different in mind. "You need to just take some Cytomel," she says he told her. Cytomel is the brand name for a form of synthetic thyroid hormone, prescribed when the thyroid is naturally underactive, which can lead to weight gain and fatigue. When Goucher asked how she would get it, she says Salazar told her, "Just ask Galen for some of his, he has a prescription for it.".
So the Goucher allegation hasn't been proven to be a lie as people are claiming. Salazar is providing a letter from Dr. Brown for a totally different time frame..
Very clever.
Kara Goucher never said she wasn't ever on Cytomel or a patient of Dr. Brown. She simply said that Alberto told her to take Cytomel early in 2011 when didn't have a prescription for it and that allegation stands.
As for the androgel, i'm not sure what has changed. The allegatiosn by ProPublica and the BBC were that a) Salazar had androgel in the camp b) he tested it on his son (and they even said Salazar said this was for sabotage reasons). Those allegations werent' refuted. They were simply confirmed by Salazar.
I've been eagerly awaiting for AlSal's response, because I felt like the BBC/Epstein piece was going to be tough to overcome. I subscribed to the "where there's this much smoke, there must be fire" theory. I still think there's a small (5-10%) chance that he's been doping his athletes. However, after reading the story, I'm 90-95% convinced. Every single one of the accusers' claims was refuted, frequently with emails that make the accusers look ridiculous. I would have preferred that AlSal refrain from the character attacks, but other than that, he clearly comes out on top here.
One last note: Rojo looks really silly right now. Come on, dude. You don't have to say you've completely changed your mind, but to say that you're not sure this changes anything?! That's just stubborn disingenuous BS that makes you look bad.
Great post.
Another Option wrote:
I find this whole situation a sad commentary on the state of journalism and the ugly side of people afforded to us through voluntary response forums like Letsrun.
Without facts, but with sufficient salacious statements, innuendo, etc., people can be essentially forced to reveal their personal medical histories to protect their names and livelihoods. I appreciate that real concerns were raised, but this trial through public media is shameful and scary, as it could happen to any of us that live in the public eye.
The BBC and Epstein better have their ducks in a row and better hope Nike isn't in a vengeful state of mind.
Let's run has been like the goofy kid in class that just wants to add more fuel to a fire for the sake of simply seeing a bigger fire while professing they're just trying to provide better lighting. They don't care if people get burned as long as more people come watch.
It seems to me that many of the principals in this story had snippets of experiences that Epstein collected and wove into a plausible fiction that was based on real events yet was no more accurate than Inglorious Ba#tards was at describing the fall of Hitler.
Let's be very clear about something here
Pretty obvious where your biases are. Jealous much that it isn't The Lydiardism?
HRE wrote:
PrettySolid wrote:I don't see the Fleshmen comments addressed but it is a much stronger response then I expected. I think lots of people responding so far haven't read the response. Please read it before you reply.
I have read it and I really don't know anything more now than I did before I read it. It's very well crafted and thorough. If you thought NOP was dirty before you read it you'll probably think that they did a great job anticipating questions and are able to provide answers that sound plausible. If you thought they were clean you'll likely respond like many posters here have done and think all is good with NOP.
It really still comes down to whom you want to believe. I do think it's sad that so many people who worked with Alberto seem to dislike and disrespect him enough to make these sorts of statements, especially if the statements are false.
PrettySolid wrote:
I don't see the Fleshmen comments addressed but it is a much stronger response then I expected. I think lots of people responding so far haven't read the response. Please read it before you reply.
No he did make a very telling statement about Fleshmen,saying nothing, her statements and credibility mean nothing expect filler for her blog.
His statements are based on factual backed up information with notes and details.
What Kara , Adam and Steve forgot in their fact-less emotional statements of what would come about is the fact based truth making them all look like despicable people. How could they think there would not be a response?
If you read between the lines and yes their lawyers will confirm it you have a basis for legal action. Colts college fund may be taking a hit,Mags has no money and will have a tough time finding a job,a copy of the rebuttal by Al has been sent to the AD and University president, the publications all have insurance for litigation and settlements.
It won't happen. Brosjos will now grasp straws and it will be hilarious and sad at the same time.
SWEDES wrote:
First, let me say I am not a Salazar supporter. However, Rojo if you need to re-read everything a time or two again you are truly showing your real hatred of Salazar. He has (his legal team) has painstakingly refuted each and every point but you think you're not "sure it changes much". The whole picture has changed but you refuse to admit it. Unbelievable, give the guy a little credit, and Nike a little credit. Without Nike, track and field in the US fails to be, only by their (notice the proper use of their)continued propping up of track and field in the US does it even exist anymore. I think you just need to man up and apologize.
Nike is going to sue all accusers including this irresponsible website. What poor journalism and foolish reporting without facts.
pin racer wrote:
Let's be very clear about something here
posted before I was done.
Alberto has responded to his critics, and offered his own explanations for all of the different allegations. (which incidentally reads like a desperate defense from a raging megalomaniac. "Everyone's out to get me because I'm so awesome". Sure they are dude)
He has not actually proven anything.
I'm all for innocent until proven guilty, but don't piss on my shoes and tell me it's raining.
Hey AlSal and Nike, feel free to look up my IP address and bring the hammer down. At least I go to sleep each night with the knowledge that I'm not the one making a mockery of our sport.
yohawk wrote:
From parents:
"We were diligent in understanding the exact content and purpose of any
supplement Galen was taking."
From Al:
Galen does not recall exactly which supplement he took in 2002. It could
have been Testoboost, Alpha Male, Tribex or ZMA.
Question:
So the parents and Al were so diligent, but now neither Al, Galen, nor the Rupps can remember what Galen's "testosterone" supplement was?
Great point. Particularly when you add it to the stuff below.
Albero initially said it was testoboost but now has backed off that claim.
Skillz In Pillz wrote:
On the bottles for Alpha Male and Tribex it actually says to not take if you are 18 years old or younger, female, or on any anti-depressants or asthma medications.
Bonkers wrote:
Very interesting response. I want to believe that the NOP is clean, but I also don't want them to get away with cheating if that's what they're doing
I still have a tough time with Salazar's claim that all these people are just making up lies because they're jealous. Really? 20 people put their professional credibility on the line just because they resent you? Seems a little far-fetched to me.
He got extremely personal with his attacks against Magness and the Gouchers. I guess if his main defense is that these people are out to get him, then a good strategy would be to paint them in as bad a light as possible.
More than anything, my takeaway from reading this is that the stakes have been raised for all parties involved. If it turns out Alberto did cheat, then this response puts him on the same level as Lance Armstrong. Someone who cheated, lied repeatedly, and personally attacked his critics in an effort to silence them.
Let's see, former athlete who claimed they "love" you make statements that attack your reputation, character, professionalism and ethics and you think that Salazar providing context that includes personal details about those making the accusations to defend himself equals "personal attacks"? Salazar doesn't just claim something regarding Gouchers, he provides evidence and argument to support what he states.
As far as citing a number of 20 people, how many of those provided multiple sources of evidence to back up their claims? Seems to me various unsubstantiated claims and personal opinions were packaged into a story and now that evidence is being provided that rebuts nearly every thread of the assembled story, many don't want to deal with the substance of his rebuttals but continue with name calling, guilt by association, etc. Essentially simply ignoring what they previously demanded Salazar provide.
J.R. wrote:
Leirbag wrote:SUCK IT, MAGNESS!!!
Right, and all the rest of the jackasses too.
Good for Alberto for standing up for the Oregon Project and especially for his athletes.
You are such a moron.